Confusing switch wiring and convert one-way to two way

[carbon8ed]

Hi all, new here. First thing to say is thanks to this site I have managed to add lights to the kitchen, hall haver moved and added sockets in lounge, hall, kitchen as well as moving cooker sockets and fixing the awful job done by the original sparky (new house build).

Original work left me with a 4ft length of twin and earth running at about 30 degrees to the horizontal from a double socket (it wasn't connected to the socket, just lodged inside the metal box!) and crossed over several vertical wires under the CU and ended about 3ft above the work service. Cleaned it all up and wiring now runs as per part P, Local Building Inspector has been round and is pleased with the electrics and I just need to get an electrician to test all sockets when finished - so that's the good bit. - Oh and thanks to all on the forums, lots of questions I had were answered.

Now the bad - I am a little stumped and confused.

Hall light has power fed to the lightswitch, with a second cable leaving which goes to the light fitting. It is a double switch and the second switch operates the outside light at the front of the house - so one more cable coming out of the box.

Power for the switch for the outside light seems to be taken from the live feed on the hall switch which is currently wired as one way switch.

I have a short live wire joining the C connections on both switches (as spotted in this thread by luminaire: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=97082

I have added two extra switches for the hall - one at the bottom of the stairs and one in the new hall to kitchen doorway. But I can't seem to change the existing wiring into a three way (well two way plus intermediate).

My wiring is currently like this diagram: //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting:single_way_lighting:tblsnonharm

If you imagine an extra switch in that socket, the neutral from the right hand cable set (named as 'to next light' is connected to L1 on the second switch and the live is C on the second switch. There is then a little red wire from C on the hall switch to the C on the outside light switch.

What I want to do is convert //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting:single_way_lighting:tblsnonharm
into //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting:intermediate:chocknonharm bearing in mind I have to power the outside light from the inside of the switch. problem is if my understanding of the diagrams is correct, the live goes to L1 and the C is connected to the yellow wire which connects all the switches together.

Sooo if I connect as per the two way plus intermediate - if I connect the little red wire from the yellow on C on the hall switch - will this carry voltage and power the outside light?

Can anyone tell me in simple terms how to turn the switch in the first diagram into the switch in the second diagram bearing in mind there are 4 lighting cables entering this lightswitch (1. power in from main, 2. power out to lamp fitting, 3. 4 way cable to connect to other switches in three way set up and 4. the live feed out to the outside light - kind of like a spur I guess).

Thanks

PS I also have mixtures of old wires (red and black, new ones which are brown, blue, black and earth and some which is red blue black and yellow - sometimes I don't see the wires it's just like looking in a kids kaleidoscope. At this point I wire it back how it was (two gang one way switches) and put fuse back in and look on here again

Lotys of similar situations, but none quite the same. Thanks peeps

 

[plugwash]

god I hate diagrams like that, they can never cover every case and tend to obscure the real point. There is never any need to mess with the layout of the existing wiring to add extra switches.

There are wires going to the two terminals of the hall switch, that is all that matters.

For a one way system you use com and L1, for a two way system you use L1 and L2 and strap the terminals together. for a three or more way system you insert intermediate switches into the wires strapping together L1 and L2 on the end switches.

 

[carbon8ed]

The orginal switch was already a two gang two way switch.

Red from circuit in C in outside light, lettle red power cable from C on outside half to C on hall light half of two way switch.

red leaves Outside light L1 and goes to the light, red wire comes out of L1 hall switch and goes to the hall lamp. All three neutrals and connected in a block connector and all three earth are together in corner.

What I have done is rewire new switch as old, but added brown cable which is joined in the intermediate switch (block - ie pass through) and then connects to the C on third switch and this is now joined to C on the 1st (original hall switch) with the little red wire from C on the outside light switch, blue from L2 on intermediate connected to L2 on hall switch. and yellow from L1 from intermediate switch is connected to L1 on the hall switch with the original red wire to the hall lamp unit.

In this config, 2nd and 3rd hall switches work and operate the hall lamp, original switch has no control. I think this is because I need a neutral from L2 on the hall switch to join with the neutrals in the block.

When I put the red wire from the hall lamp into L2 with the blue from the intermediate only the original hall switch works, switches two and three do not operate. I think this is the way it should be, and again I think I need to take a neutral from L2 on the hall switch to the three existing neutrals in the block connector.

Does this make sense? can you envisage what I am looking at and will the solution work??

Thanks for speedy reply last time.

 

[plugwash]

The orginal switch was already a two gang two way switch.

Red from circuit in C in outside light, lettle red power cable from C on outside half to C on hall light half of two way switch.

Fine

red leaves Outside light L1 and goes to the light, red wire comes out of L1 hall switch and goes to the hall lamp. All three neutrals and connected in a block connector and all three earth are together in corner.

fine

What I have done is rewire new switch as old, but added brown cable which is joined in the intermediate switch (block - ie pass through) and then connects to the C on third switch and this is now joined to C on the 1st (original hall switch) with the little red wire from C on the outside light switch, blue from L2 on intermediate connected to L2 on hall switch. and yellow from L1 from intermediate switch is connected to L1 on the hall switch with the original red wire to the hall lamp unit.

nearly right

move the hall switch end of the little red wire from C to L2

I think this is because I need a neutral from L2 on the hall switch to join with the neutrals in the block.

NO YOU NEVER CONNECT A NEUTRAL TO A LIGHTSWITCH.

 

[carbon8ed]

Excellent! - thank you sir!

Off to try it.

Will report back soon - maybe after the next pint?

Cheers again (and I suspected about not connecting the neutrals but wasn't sure - it was 50:50 - very glad I checked)


Edit - SORTED Thanks again, swapped blue and yellow in main switch as lamp was on when all switches 'off' and works a treat.

Off to sort lounge out now (easier)

 

[RF Lighting]

Why not wait until you are sober before you start messing with electricity

It is LETHAL stuff at the best of times. Impared judgement just makes things a whole lot more dangerous.

 

[carbon8ed]

Why not wait until you are sober before you start messing with electricity

It is LETHAL stuff at the best of times. Impared judgement just makes things a whole lot more dangerous.

Appreciate your sentiments, I was actually getting my kids to bed and setting up my new printer - doesn't sound as glamorous as 'Avin' a Pint Wit' lads, but I guarantee I was stone cold sober when I did this - even remembered about swapping the blue and yellow if switch upside down.

All's well - I have no desire to be zapped/fried/shocked or anything - I ache enough already Best bit I have a 3-way Hall light so can light hall when come down stairs, turn off when leave front door or go into lounge or kitchen/diner - and of course turn them on and off again in any permutation of those three locations!, made all the wire feeding, head scratching and forum searching worthwhile