Could any of you qualified sparks please help? I am replacing a kitchen and my sparks says that to put a cert on his work the cooker circuit which is from a 32 amp MCB in 6 mm T&E to an isolation switch with a socket needs to be on the RCD side of the consumer unit.The oven switch and socket is away from the back door and there are other sockets closer which are RCD protected.My consumer unit is a 3&3 split with the kitchen,up & down on the RCD side and up & down lights and cooker on the MCB side,therefor if my sparks sticks to his guns my option would I think be an RCBO.Let me explain my sparks is a good mate and we have lots of banter and in principle I agree with the RCD route but is it a requirement to regs--I would love to rip the p--s. Kind regards Guys.
cooker switch with socket
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the regs say something along the lines that any socket which could reasonably be expected to supply portable hand held equipment out doors must have rcd protection. Most sparks take this as being all ground floor sockets, including me, so due to ovens having leakage current i only fit isolators on their circuits.
The only consideration asked by bulding regs are:
"Precautions need to be taken to prevent heat generated by a cooker, including the hob, creating a risk of fire, or harmful effects, to adjacent eqipment or materials including furnishing"
It also suggest consideration for a separate circuit for ovens over a rating of 13A.
As you said oven have earth leakage and nusiance tripping is a real possibity. Really useful when you've put the roast on and gone out for a couple of hours to walk the dog and come back to a raw chicken!
"Precautions need to be taken to prevent heat generated by a cooker, including the hob, creating a risk of fire, or harmful effects, to adjacent eqipment or materials including furnishing"
It also suggest consideration for a separate circuit for ovens over a rating of 13A.
As you said oven have earth leakage and nusiance tripping is a real possibity. Really useful when you've put the roast on and gone out for a couple of hours to walk the dog and come back to a raw chicken!
Under the proposed 17th Edition Regs, it will be all sockets for general use must have RCD protection.
So I think a straight isolation switch for the cooker circuit will be the answer.
However I have recently heard that Napit and Elecsa have been telling members the cooker point should be on the protected side of the fuseboard because it has a socket and faulting the installation.
We all know this is not a good idea and will most certainly at some point give cause or contribute towards nuisance tripping.
If there is a socket closer to the outside walls other than the cooker point then I would not consider this as a socket that would be used for outdoor use.
So I think a straight isolation switch for the cooker circuit will be the answer.
However I have recently heard that Napit and Elecsa have been telling members the cooker point should be on the protected side of the fuseboard because it has a socket and faulting the installation.
We all know this is not a good idea and will most certainly at some point give cause or contribute towards nuisance tripping.
If there is a socket closer to the outside walls other than the cooker point then I would not consider this as a socket that would be used for outdoor use.
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best option is a cooker switch with no socket.
It is not unknown for people with a faulty appliance, which trips the RCD, to find a non-RCD socket and carry on using it
Quite apart from this, a socket adjacent to the cooker encourages people to drape the kettle flex across the hob so that it melts.
I had not given this much thought before, but looking at my cooker I see the nearest sockets are 700mm on each side, which I think is great.
It is not unknown for people with a faulty appliance, which trips the RCD, to find a non-RCD socket and carry on using it
Quite apart from this, a socket adjacent to the cooker encourages people to drape the kettle flex across the hob so that it melts.
I had not given this much thought before, but looking at my cooker I see the nearest sockets are 700mm on each side, which I think is great.
Thanks for your all your replies guys, points re nuisance tripping and it being preferable to have an isolation switch only, make good sense.But to get back to my original question is it against IEE regs at present to have this combined type of isolator/socket on the unprotected side of the consumer unit. I visit this great site most days and realise that you give your time and knowlege to help and advise and not to (spout regs) but in this instance could you give a diffinative answer--a beer is at stake! By the way John D I never thought about leads being melted over hobs but in this instance the oved is on a different wall to the hob.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
You could permanently label or engrave the outlet to the lines of "Not protected by an RCD - Must not be used to supply equipment outdoors"
Therefore it would now be a socket not reasonably expected to supply equipment outdoors, fullfill regs, and you win your pint !
If someone ignores the warning and "cops an unfortunate one" don't choke on the that beer though !
Therefore it would now be a socket not reasonably expected to supply equipment outdoors, fullfill regs, and you win your pint !
If someone ignores the warning and "cops an unfortunate one" don't choke on the that beer though !
Regulation 412-06-02, states,
Supplementary protection against direct contact by means of an RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 412-06--02 is to be provided for:
• every socket-outlet rated at 32 A or less which may be reasonably expected to supply portable equipment for use outdoors, and
• every item of permanently-connected portable equipment for use outdoors connected by means of flexible cable or cord having a current-carrying capacity not exceeding 32 A.
" Reasonably expected to supply portable equipment for use outdoors"
So if you have sockets that are more likely to used due to the positions being closer to say the front or back door, then you can interprete that the cooker socket is unreasonably expected to supply portable equipment for use outdoors and therefore does not need to be on the protected side.
However if the socket on the ccu is the most convenient for use then it should be on the protected side.
This will be clear on site, and should be connected accordingly.
The keywords are "Reasonably Expected" it's then down to you.
Supplementary protection against direct contact by means of an RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 412-06--02 is to be provided for:
• every socket-outlet rated at 32 A or less which may be reasonably expected to supply portable equipment for use outdoors, and
• every item of permanently-connected portable equipment for use outdoors connected by means of flexible cable or cord having a current-carrying capacity not exceeding 32 A.
" Reasonably expected to supply portable equipment for use outdoors"
So if you have sockets that are more likely to used due to the positions being closer to say the front or back door, then you can interprete that the cooker socket is unreasonably expected to supply portable equipment for use outdoors and therefore does not need to be on the protected side.
However if the socket on the ccu is the most convenient for use then it should be on the protected side.
This will be clear on site, and should be connected accordingly.
The keywords are "Reasonably Expected" it's then down to you.
thanks all ,especially Steve 3948 it appears my mate is buying the beer kind regards.
I personally work on idiot proofing installations.
Joe Bloggs has a lawn mower with a flex which has been run over, and subsequently has an RCD tripping fault.
He has plugged it into a socket on the kitchen ring, causing the RCD to trip. He thinks "oh thats funny, that socket isn't working"
"Hmm, never mind I'll try this socket in the dining room, which is conveniently next to the kitchen in my trendy open plan designer apartment"
"hmm wierd that plug is bust too. now where can I make my mower work? I need to get a move on, as it is starting to rain."
Joe has a look around.
"Whoa!! F-ing Bingo! I can see a little light on my cooker doofer. I'll try that"
Bzzzzzz (from mower out side)
"Right lets get that grass cut"
"AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
Joe has been electrocuted. If only that socket was RCDed.
Joe Bloggs has a lawn mower with a flex which has been run over, and subsequently has an RCD tripping fault.
He has plugged it into a socket on the kitchen ring, causing the RCD to trip. He thinks "oh thats funny, that socket isn't working"
"Hmm, never mind I'll try this socket in the dining room, which is conveniently next to the kitchen in my trendy open plan designer apartment"
"hmm wierd that plug is bust too. now where can I make my mower work? I need to get a move on, as it is starting to rain."
Joe has a look around.
"Whoa!! F-ing Bingo! I can see a little light on my cooker doofer. I'll try that"
Bzzzzzz (from mower out side)
"Right lets get that grass cut"
"AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
Joe has been electrocuted. If only that socket was RCDed.
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I think this is where it gets a bit silly. No offence, Rob, but you cannot in a month of Sundays foolproof any installation. Not without falling foul of another regulation, ie ending up with everything RCD protected.
Like the other hotly discussed publication The Bible, 7671 is interpreted in many different ways. But I see all G/F skts needing RCD protection. However, if you can mark sockets unsuitable, then I think that's OK.
Like the other hotly discussed publication The Bible, 7671 is interpreted in many different ways. But I see all G/F skts needing RCD protection. However, if you can mark sockets unsuitable, then I think that's OK.
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