Load-bearing window trim!

[JamesA]

I've removed the siliconed-in strips of pvc window trim around the inside of my windows and it seems as it they were holding the frame steady.

Its a triple window and you can move the top middle of the frame outwards about an inch

There are 2 masonary screws at each end holding the frame in, and possibly one or two in the bottom.
Should there be screws into the top wall as well? Surely the frame shouldn't move?

I've had problems with this window company in the past and I believe they sacked the fitters who did mine.
Has anyone any advice on taking this further? I don't trust the fitters and frankly would prefer not to have them in my home again.
There's a window fitter down the road who I could give a few quid to.
Is this the kind of thing you can complain to FENSA or the council about?
To be honest, I'd like an inspection of all the windows to make sure they're safe and they're not more sins hidden by plastic trim.

 

[Richard C]

The “nice plastic trim strip” around the frame is a popular fitter accessory & usually used to hide a host of bodges but in most cases they can only fit what’s given to them so it’s not really their fault. The only trim (if any) I would expect to see around the frame is perhaps some 12mm quadrant; any wide strips & I would be extremely suspicious about what’s underneath!

The clearance around the frame should be around 5mm & there should be packers either side of each fixing screw to prevent the frame distorting when the fixings are tightened. By outwards, do you mean upwards into the brickwork? If you can move the top of your frame UP by 1” the frame has been made far too small for the brick opening & the frame quality doesn’t sound too good either! I would expect to fixings spaced at 200 – 300mm around the frame, depending on size; apart from a “bodged installation”, inadequate number of fixings gives virtually no security! There should also be fixings on the top & bottom but some “fitters” leave out the top ones if steel lintels are fitted above the window cos it’s more work to fix into these & they can’t be bothered. Others tricks are to use vast amounts of expanding foam to fill large gaps & hold the frame in place but, in my book, this is just as much of a bodge & should only be used in circumstances where there is no other option; expanding foam should only be used to seal around the frame if a t all, with quadrant beading &/or a bead of silicone sealant around the outside as a weather seal.

Practically all window companies now use self employed fitters so for your company to say they have sacked them is probably a load of old cods; it just means they maybe won’t use them again; or maybe they will! Your first course of action should be to complain in writing to your installation company (it’s they that are FENSA registered not the fitters) & give them the opportunity to put things right; is it a large “National” name or small, local company? If they decline or you don’t get satisfaction, try complaining to FENSA; they may wish to inspect if they’ve had previous complaints about the company; they may take it further but I can’t guarantee it. You should also try contacting trading standards but, in all probability, your local council won’t be interested!

 

[JamesA]

By outwards, do you mean upwards into the brickwork? If you can move the top of your frame UP by 1” the frame has been made far too small for the brick opening

No, tilting horizontally outwards towards the outside.

...some “fitters” leave out the top ones if steel lintels are fitted above the window cos it’s more work to fix into these & they can’t be bothered.

There is metal at the top of each window...

Practically all window companies now use self employed fitters ... is it a large “National” name or small, local company? ...your local council won’t be interested!

Worryingly the local showroom has gone, altough their main office in essex is still open I believe.
It is insurance backed so in theory that should cover the costs and someone should have taken the servicing over.
It'll all become clear when I ring them today.
I've contacted consumer direct and my council's trading standards department and FENSA without much luck.

I asked FENSA do they do inspections other than the random 1%? No.
Can I complain to them about a company so they get inspected more? No.
I sometimes think FENSA is just a "cowboy licence" for dodgy traders...
FENSA are going to have to know what address to turn up to do the inspection so companies will always know.
I imagine the company that did mine puts up its best fitters and does everything carefully when they're being inspected.

 

[sherbie]

from what i have been told the company registered with FENSA has to give them the addresses im assuming to send certification of compliance. And then they are then told what ones (if any ) they are going to inspect so really the company needs to do the work properly as there is no way of knowing if a inspection is on its way

this may not be entirely accurate as its what i have heard not what i know

also ive found this http://www.cowboystoppers.co.uk/report.aspx its in association with FENSA so it might do the trick or their feedback form http://www.fensa.co.uk/contactForm.aspx

 

[JamesA]

You'd think that would be a better system. FENSA seem very guarded about the details.
I'm planning to leave feedback.

FENSA have given me the name of the insurance company IPWFI that are underwriting the 10 year guarantee.
Interestingly, they said the main windows company office is taking on the servicing for the closed bankrupt local branch (that was actually registered as a separate company and FENSA number).
They denied it at first, although I even recognised it was the same person on the phone.

So they might fix my problem.

If I do get a local window fitter to check my windows over for cash-in-hand what do you think I should offer? £100 enough?
It would involve removing the trims, checking the windows are fixed properly and there's no risk of damp getting in, then putting the trims back on.

 

[Richard C]

If I do get a local window fitter to check my windows over for cash-in-hand what do you think I should offer? £100 enough?
It would involve removing the trims, checking the windows are fixed properly and there's no risk of damp getting in, then putting the trims back on.

Is he a good mate of your or just a fitter that lives down the road? How many windows? Are you expecting him to correct any problems he finds? It seems rather a waste of time putting the trim back over problems if he does find any! I would be inclined to follow up on the independent warranty route first before doing anything yourself, using the one window you have removed the trim on as an example of bad workmanship. If you start removing trim on the others, you may break the terms of the warranty & I would have a look in the small print first!

 

[JamesA]

There isn't any small print just a general page on their web site that I saved a copy of at the time.

It's just a bloke down the road.
Perhaps I should remove all the (internal) trim and check them myself first so it takes less time.

Its just a case of getting piece of mind by having a professional look at them. If there's actually problems then the insurance route may be best.

Is damp something to worry about or will there be natural breathing of the brickwork and mortar anyway?
Is it essential that the silicon sealing is perfect?

 

[Richard C]

There isn't any small print just a general page on their web site that I saved a copy of at the time.

Hmmm; mine has lots of small print!

It's just a bloke down the road. Perhaps I should remove all the (internal) trim and check them myself first so it takes less time. Its just a case of getting piece of mind by having a professional look at them. If there's actually problems then the insurance route may be best.

As I said, I would follow that route first using the window you’ve removed the trim from as an example of bad workmanship; say it points to a second rate job &, on the basis of what you’ve found, you don’t think it unreasonable to require the rest of the job be inspected & any faults found rectified as necessary.

Is damp something to worry about or will there be natural breathing of the brickwork and mortar anyway?
Is it essential that the silicon sealing is perfect?

Damp is not normally a problem with window replacement if there was not previously a problem but the external silicone seal must be intact or you will inevitably get problems with moisture penetration later.

 

[JamesA]

The plot thickens.
The insurance company say there's no certificate.
FENSA says you have to be offered insurance not given it.

We we told it was insurance backed, and although we got a little pamphlet from the insurers in our pack of window documentation we were never offered it.
They basically told us we were covered.
Even the windows company web site is highly misleading suggesting you get the cover automatically.
It seems they broke the FENSA agreement which does us little good now as officially they've stopped trading.

I'm not hopeful of their offer to pop in next time they're in the area...[/b]