Now had 2 NICEIC companies unhelpful re:Kitchen

[freestyle]

Firstly many thanks to the people who replied to my posts last week with regards to Part P.. oops mentioned it again !

I called 2 companies out who are listed on the NIC website. As I suspected, they only have a single person in their company who is approved and the others are just your normal sparkies (the ones that do the work !)..

When they visited, I explained the reason I wanted them to do the work was because of the new regs and I was looking to receive some kind of paperwork to confirm I had followed procedures. I also explained how I thought it was their responsibility to inform someone that the work has been done (similar to corgi)

Both companies looked at me a little confused. 'Your the first person to ask.....'

Arghh !

The latest is that I have just had a telephone call. They said that I can do the work myself (which I know I can't because of answers to previous questions) and then pay £200 for a peridic check certificate.


So my real question is what should I be asking for ?

I read somewhere they they should be offering me with the option to take out insurance on their work. Not that I want it, but why is it so hard for people to follow. I am either doing this correclty and paying for it, or not at all and do it myself


All it says is 'a certificate' will be given. Well they have no idea what this is
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1130906

Why should I use an
installer who is
registered with a competent
person scheme?
 Members of schemes can
deal with all the new rules
for you.
 Members are qualified to
carry out electrical work.
 Members will give you a
certificate to confirm their
work follows the new rules.
 You will not have to pay
Building Control charges.
 You will have the option of
taking out an insurancebacked
guarantee for the work.
 You will have access to a formal
complaints procedure if you are
not happy with the work.
To contact one of the
competent person schemes,
phone one of the numbers
given over the page.
Registered installers are in the
process of becoming members of
the new building trades Quality
Schemes which will be launched in
2005. Quality Schemes members
will offer consumers more protection
than the minimum protection
registered installers must offer.

 

[freestyle]

A reply to myself.

I'm thinking that the option is to either

1) Use a competent person
2) Do it myself and notify building control

At the moment the second option is the cheapest. Can anyone confirm that this will be ok. I have read so much over recent days my brain is over loaded !

 

[brian.tabernor]

Hi Freestyle.

Just bear in mind the cost of LBC notification, in my area that's £130. For that they still require the customer to get their installation certified by a registered electrician, if you can find one who will pass of work done by someone else.

 

[HandyJon]

Hi Freestyle.

Just bear in mind the cost of LBC notification, in my area that's £130. For that they still require the customer to get their installation certified by a registered electrician

No, the LBC have to get the installation certified themselves. If they have to hire an electrician to do the checking then they have to carry the cost of it, not the home owner. The home owner only has to pay the normal charge for any building notfication, approx £100-150 depending on council.

 

[brian.tabernor]

HandyJon

I agree in theory with what you have said and I have read the forums regarding the issue, but in practice if you are diy the last thing that you want to do is go upsetting the jobsworths at the council. Start arguing about the legalities of what they are saying and you are getting into a long drawn out argument.
They're making it even more unworkable and unrealistic, but what can I say. As if Joe Bloggs (sorry if you're reading this Joe) is going to go down the market and buy a water feature for £20 and then pay £130 LBC plus electrician costs.

This is the quote from my LBC website.

From 1 January 2005 the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations will be controlled under the Building Regulations. The new Part P will apply mainly to dwelling houses and flats including gardens and outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and greenhouses.


Small jobs such as provision of a socket-outlet or a light switch on an existing circuit will not need to be notified to Building Control (although there will be some exceptions for high risk areas such as kitchens and bathrooms).
All work that involves adding a new circuit to a dwelling, or electrical work in kitchens and bathrooms or in 'special locations' (see table) will need to be either notified to Building Control with a building regulation application, or carried out by a competent person who is registered with a Part P Self-Certification Scheme.

There are two routes available to applicants to ensure they comply with Part P:

1.
Use an electrician/installer who is registered with a Competent Person's scheme, in which case a building regulation application will not be required for the electrical work. We would strongly encourage the use of electricians/installers who are part of a Competent Person Scheme.
Submit a Building Regulation application to the Local Authority:
Where an electrician registered with a recognised trade body such as NICEIC, ECA & NAPIT (who need not be registered under a competent persons scheme) tests the work and issues a design, installation and test certificate under BS7671. Building Control will accept the certificate as evidence that the work complies with Part P. Additional inspections by Building Control may also be carried out in conjunction with the acceptance of a certificate (a list of those electricians competent to inspect and test will be available on the internet at labc-services.co.uk).

2.
Where the work is carried out by an unregistered electrician or is a DIY installation, the applicant is required to have the work inspected and tested by a registered electrician as in A. above.

 

[freestyle]

Thank you to the earlier poster who pointed out that it's the LABC who must pick up the cost if they use an external company to check.


Back to the original topic, I have just had an electrician come around to look at what I want to do. He is registered on the partp.co.uk website.

He pointed out several things, that I have not read on these forums before. And might be of some use to anyone who reads this in the future.

1) As part of the install work, ie. Him doing it. He will check 'other' things and point them out. There is always something, but it's not compolsory to get them done.

2) While having an inital look at the work invovled, he pointed out that I have and 'old' earth. That is to say it's using the outer casing from the mains supply with a cable connected to a 'loose' screw which is in tern connected to the fuse box.

He also said that I need a seperate 'bonding earth' feed to the kithchen and the bathroom even though I'm not touching the bathroom

So with all of this, it's unlikely I will be doing the work myself as it's likely to get picked to pieces.

Anyone any views on these statements ?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

HandyJon

I agree in theory with what you have said and I have read the forums regarding the issue, but in practice if you are diy the last thing that you want to do is go upsetting the jobsworths at the council. Start arguing about the legalities of what they are saying and you are getting into a long drawn out argument.

Ultimately, though, they are in the wrong, and you are in the right.

Worst case is that you get your money refunded, and no completion certificate, but they have lost any chance of taking you to court for failing to notify.

. . . . .

Thank you to the earlier poster who pointed out that it's the LABC who must pick up the cost if they use an external company to check.

But as Brian says, they will make it hard for you - be prepared for a fight.

Back to the original topic, I have just had an electrician come around to look at what I want to do. He is registered on the partp.co.uk website.

You do know, I hope, that that website is not an official one, and is just the website of one of the many competent person schemes that there are. (And not a very good one, IMO).

He pointed out several things, that I have not read on these forums before. And might be of some use to anyone who reads this in the future.

1) As part of the install work, ie. Him doing it. He will check 'other' things and point them out. There is always something, but it's not compolsory to get them done.

That's not news.

2) While having an inital look at the work invovled, he pointed out that I have and 'old' earth. That is to say it's using the outer casing from the mains supply with a cable connected to a 'loose' screw which is in tern connected to the fuse box.

Nothing wrong with using the sheath of the supply cable - this is one of the standard types of supply (TN-S - see here for more details).
There shouldn't be any loose connections though, but he is wrong to say it's an "old" earth as if there is somehow something that needs bringing up to date.

He also said that I need a seperate 'bonding earth' feed to the kithchen and the bathroom even though I'm not touching the bathroom

There is no requirement for supplementary equipotential bonding in the kitchen. If your main services enter in the kitchen and you have no main equipotential bonding then you do need that cable to be run.

There is no requirement to connect supplementary equipotential bonding in the bathroom back to the main earth terminal. Even if you have no s-e-b in the bathroom, you are not obliged to rectify that (bl**dy good idea to, though), but if your electrician is proposing to force you to do it he is conning you, and if he is planning to run a bonding cable all the way to the bathroom then he is either defrauding you or he is lamentably ignorant.

And you have my full permission to show him these comments, and I would be delighted to enter into a debate with him...

So with all of this, it's unlikely I will be doing the work myself as it's likely to get picked to pieces.

Anyone any views on these statements ?

With your last comment you have hit the nail on the head.

You are allowed to DIY, but you must also know what you are doing. DIYers have no official dispensation to work to lower standards than professionals.

If you knew what you were doing, you would have known that there was nothing "old" about a TN-S supply.

If you knew what you were doing you would have known about the requirements for main and supplementary equipotential bonding.

It isn't rocket science, but it isn't like wiring a plug, ether...

 

[freestyle]

Thank you once again for your well constructed response. I will have to get some tips from you on how to construct questions better !


In relation to the partp.co.uk website, you say that it's not official. But I have found it better than the NIC and the ELECSA site. I must admit that the website address it's self you would suspect as dodgy. But got the address in the first place from the odpm website so surely it's legal ??
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_033485.pdf

For example this specific page is great.
http://www.partp.co.uk/consumer/7steps.asp

As a consumer, it's very clear what I should expect and includes sample documents.

As for the electrician, I am awaiting a call from him to give me a price. And I will take on your advice. He did seem a lot better than the previous 2 companies, in that he personally was competant. The other companies simply sent out a rockie sparky, who would get his boss over to do the sign off.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply it was illegal - what I meant was that even though the site has the name that it does, it is just the website of one of the competent person schemes, the others being BSI, ELECSA, NAPIT and NICEIC - it doesn't have any official status with respect to the Part P legislation or any special standing in the eyes of the ODPM.

 

[freestyle]

Yes, sorry for my interpretation I now understand what you were telling me.

Update: Have just been quoted £535.34 inc VAT. I know that discussing money in these forums is frowned upon because of circumstance and location. However

There are 8 sockets to be 'conneted'. Each will require new wiring, all wiring is to the loft space which is fully open with lots of room to stand up etc. All the holes and chassing has been complete and the double sockets already purchased. New 35mm boxes also already installed

Connection of cooker hood, gas ignition for cooker+oven to new spur

Connection of new lights in ceiling

Connection and provision of new bonding earth to mains/sink