RCD as a main isolation switch

[1john]

Also 'mates rates' means you are doing work cheap, no wonder people think sparky's / plumbers charge too much when there are loads of people going about hobbling, the amount of rewires i lost out to hobblers last year was crazy, someone wiring a 2 bed flat for £1200 is just crazy.

 

[STI]

Also 'mates rates' means you are doing work cheap, no wonder people think sparky's / plumbers charge too much when there are loads of people going about hobbling, the amount of rewires i lost out to hobblers last year was crazy, someone wiring a 2 bed flat for £1200 is just crazy.

No it means i am doing this job at mates rates because he is a mate. Generalisations (and this is one) open all all sorts of cans of worms but some plumbers/sparks do charge too much e.g. Gassafe plumber £45 to fit a blanking cap to a pipe which was already isolated by a valve. (Parts 24p time on site 10 mins on his way home at the end of his day) Electrician £65 to change a damaged pendant fitting (Parts £3 time on site 20 mins)

Maybe they felt they had to charge this because of the fees they have to pay to their respective schemes. BAS i have commented in the past on my feelings about the schemes and until they change to have realistic fees, truly become a quality mark and offer a more flexible membership status i will continue to resist joining them for as long as i can and i would urge others who want change to to do the same.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS i have commented in the past on my feelings about the schemes

Muddled and irrational? (Your feelings, I mean)

and until they change to have realistic fees,

By how much per day does the membership fee increase the rates you have to charge?

truly become a quality mark

So are you refusing to join because of the cost, or because you don't think they measure up to your standards?

and offer a more flexible membership status

What flexibility are you looking for, and how would it benefit your customers?

i will continue to resist joining them for as long as i can and i would urge others who want change to to do the same.

Not joining them is not going to bring about changes.

All it will do is to add £70 to the cost of employing you do do notifiable work, and delays of a few weeks while your customers wait for the plans to be approved. Were I a potential customer of yours I wouldn't contemplate that kind of malarkey for a second, and I'm surprised anyone does. And for a lot of the people you are urging to not register it would add a damn sight more than £70 to the cost of employing them. If riveralt is right, 2 notifiable jobs per year in Sefton would be the tipping point.

 

[STI]

BAS i have commented in the past on my feelings about the schemes

Muddled and irrational? (Your feelings, I mean)

and until they change to have realistic fees,

By how much per day does the membership fee increase the rates you have to charge?

truly become a quality mark

So are you refusing to join because of the cost, or because you don't think they measure up to your standards?

and offer a more flexible membership status

What flexibility are you looking for, and how would it benefit your customers?

i will continue to resist joining them for as long as i can and i would urge others who want change to to do the same.

Not joining them is not going to bring about changes.

All it will do is to add £70 to the cost of employing you do do notifiable work, and delays of a few weeks while your customers wait for the plans to be approved. Were I a potential customer of yours I wouldn't contemplate that kind of malarkey for a second, and I'm surprised anyone does. And for a lot of the people you are urging to not register it would add a damn sight more than £70 to the cost of employing them. If riveralt is right, 2 notifiable jobs per year in Sefton would be the tipping point.

Muddled and irrational? (Your feelings, I mean)
What flexibility are you looking for, and how would it benefit your customers
So are you refusing to join because of the cost, or because you don't think they measure up to your standards?

Each statement is associated so need to be kept in context
I disagree, perhaps emotional but not irrational or muddled.
If there was a category of mebership where the fee was dropped to £100 per year perhaps with a £5.00 notifiable job registration fee for each notifiable job this would suite me as a small sole trader who is not targetting complete rewires just small jobs trying to get started and pay my bills whilst providing a professional value for money service and occassionaly needs to do a notifiable job usually because of location rather than anything else.


All it will do is to add £70 to the cost of employing you do do notifiable work, and delays of a few weeks while your customers wait for the plans to be approved. Were I a potential customer of yours I wouldn't contemplate that kind of malarkey for a second, and I'm surprised anyone does.

Not true, as said i can absorb that cost in most cases (i accept it does vary from LA to LA and some jobs are too small for me to do that) but it would be better still if i just had to think about adding £5 approx to my fees to cover notifiable work. There is no time delay at all for the types of job i accept/target plan my business model on, the BCO says send in the application along with your test results ie post completion of job ( i know thats not the way it should be done) and they will send off the completion.

I do not suggest to anyone reading this that that is the way they should do it, but i will say that if you talk to your BCO they are not trying to make things difficult and in my case, to date the above has been their response. Again i will stress these are not major jobs they are things like adding a new socket outlet in a kitchen or fitting a new light.

And should a BCO come out to inspect well thats all to do with setting expectations with my customer and actually positioning it as a further quality assurance for them if a BCO does want to inspect.


And regarding a true measure of quality, I recently went to a home to fix a light fitting. As i was leaving they mentioned they where getting tingles from the cooker. The cooker outlet had been installed by a registered electrician,now retired. The earth to the cooker outlet had never been attached to the the earth at the CU. IT HAD NOT BROKEN AND BECOME DETACHED IT HAD NEVER BE ATTACHED . HE HAD CUT THE CABLE TOO SHORT.
What quality assurance had the membership scheme given to that customer.
I have said in the past if you have the certificates from your exams these should be sufficient to join a scheme and be classed as competent, if they arent to be considered such, then the training facility should be dismantled and C&G qualifications thrown in the bin. Once a member then rather than assess you when you apply the scheme inspectors should go out on an unannounced visit to one of the clients you have sent the certificates in for and inspect the work. The member can't then just do a smashing job on your/mums/brothers installation they would have to deliver a consistently high standard. Would customers object to having an inspection, again i can only comment on my own, they have been very happy to act as references and now most of my work is coming from their recomendations so i think they would happily have a scheme inspector in. Set the expectation with the customer explain it might happen and position it positively.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If there was a category of mebership where the fee was dropped to £100 per year perhaps with a £5.00 notifiable job registration fee for each notifiable job

I know people moan about what the schemes do for the money they charge, but at £100/year they'd probably lose money, particularly if they're going to have armies of inspectors going round.

this would suite me as a small sole trader who is not targetting complete rewires just small jobs trying to get started and pay my bills whilst providing a professional value for money service and occassionaly needs to do a notifiable job usually because of location rather than anything else.

I'm sure it would, but I repeat, by how much per day do the current membership fees increase the rates you have to charge?

Not true, as said i can absorb that cost in most cases (i accept it does vary from LA to LA and some jobs are too small for me to do that) but it would be better still if i just had to think about adding £5 approx to my fees to cover notifiable work. There is no time delay at all for the types of job i accept/target plan my business model on, the BCO says send in the application along with your test results ie post completion of job ( i know thats not the way it should be done) and they will send off the completion.

As you say, not all LABCs work the way yours does.

What quality assurance had the membership scheme given to that customer.

None, but how would people not registering with them improve that?

 

[STI]

I will admit that in my argument is an assumption that if you make the fees low enough then a higher volume of individuals would join(and yes i do think it should be a requirement that every individual needs to join). If it is to be a quality mark then i would like to see 100% of sparks signed up.

I am also assuming the schemes role is two fold 1 protect the public and 2 Represent their members.(Over simplistic but for the sake of keeping postings as brief as possible)

To your first point, if they just took random samples of work to inspect then they wouldn't need armies of inspectors. If as they do now they assess by inspection every single applicant , then by stopping this and only inspecting a sample of work registered with them, in theory, less inspectors could be used. The effectiveness of being recognised as a quality mark could be increased because no spark knows if or when they are going to be inspected so they must keep up the standards just in case. True the number of inspectors needs to be large enough to show that a spot inspection is probable rather than highly unlikey but add to this, that if a customer was not happy they could complain to the scheme provider, every complaint would be investigated and consitently poor sparks identified and removed from the scheme. Now it starts to become a true quality mark.

To your final question. If there is a general dissatisfaction with the scheme providers, I have no facts to back this up just a few comments on these forums and talking to one or two colleagues, so by no means a scientific survey, then whilst people continue to pay their fees it is unlikely to change. Payment of fees=satisfaction.

If change is required by the members, the surest way of at the least being listened to is to withold the life blood of the schemes, the members fees.

Hopefully then the schemes will listen change if a better way is agreed and become truly representitive of the whole trade. With combined input from the front line (sparks) through the representitive schemes the legislative bodies and standards bodies the system may be improved.

It is good that a part P review is being considered but i question who is going to be asked to input into this review and from what perspective they approach it. Do the scheme providers represent the electricians today i think not, but actually i dont know, i thought that was part of their role but i am not at all sure. Should they, as long as they truly represent the trade, yes its the only practical way.

 

[riveralt]

To your final question. If there is a general dissatisfaction with the scheme providers, I have no facts to back this up just a few comments on these forums and talking to one or two colleagues, so by no means a scientific survey, then whilst people continue to pay their fees it is unlikely to change. Payment of fees=satisfaction.

Not so.
I fitted a new bathroom extractor fan before Christmas - price £165 all in. Notification made through NAPIT.
If I had to price the job without NAPIT membership price of job £150 plus £321 to register with Local Authority Building Control.

So at £165 I get the job. At £471 - do you I get the job, No because someone who isn't registered and doesn't bother with Part P comes along and either matches or beats my price.
So belonging to a competent persons scheme makes financial sense to me

 

[STI]

I think this just highlights the strange LABC charges structure rather than supporting the schemes merits or not.

 

[1john]

So the schemes that provide you with some form of accreditation, come and assess you annually and may highlight things you may be over looking, provide insurance to your customers and give you an easy and affordable way to notify work to building control are too expensive at £1.34 a day plus £1.50 per job to notify?

 

[RF Lighting]

Did you forget access to their technical helpline too?

 

[1john]

Looks like I did, althouh to be fair, i tried that once, i never got through. It was quicker to drive home and get the bible.