Hi all. I realise if I'm asking this it means I should be getting the experts in but here goes... I've recently purchased a 1930s mid terrace house and plan on knocking through to create a kitchen diner. Its a fairly standard layout - kitchen and dining room at the back of the house with the kitchen narrower and slightly shorter (as you enterr the dining room from the side). I'd originally assumed it was a supporting wall due to the bathroom wall above but on closer inspection with a tape measure the walls don't line up. The joists run parallel to the wall and from what I can see in the upstairs bedroom there's an extra joints on at least one side of the wall ie. The rest in the room are 400mm apart but there's an additonal one 150mm away from the wall edge. What I'd like to know is how can I determine if it is loadbearing. A builder friend suggested putting a steel in anyway to be on the safe side as he said he'd imagine its supporting something but if I can avoid it I'd rather not spend money where's its not needed. Equally, I'm happy to pay what it costs to do it properly. Will building control be able to tell me or will I need to pay for a strucutural engineer
supporting wall or not?
- Thread starter Burnz0
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I'm not sure what your builder friend is on about, as its stupid to put a steel beam in if its not holding anything above it and its just stretched across the room doing nothing
If there will be something above it, then it needs a beam
You or your friend need to see if there is anything resting anywhere on the wall or not, and that will tell you if a beam is needed
Building control wont tell you, as they only check what you have done to see if its right
If there will be something above it, then it needs a beam
You or your friend need to see if there is anything resting anywhere on the wall or not, and that will tell you if a beam is needed
Building control wont tell you, as they only check what you have done to see if its right
If you want to be 100% ring building control, tell them what you want to do, ask what they have to say on the matter and act accordingly.
If it's the wall i'm thinking of i did the same in our gaff and have done many others since.
We started doing these jobs with pad stones and concrete lintel (depending on span). But now do them all with pad stones and steel lintel UB (universal beam) metric family.
Don't get confussed with RSJ, rolled steel joist. That looks similar but is much more flared where the center piece meets the outer parts and are of the imperial family, not used that much now and are more expensive than a UB.
I our experience most 30's semi's where almost made for this very mod and we've yet to encounter difficulties doing the job or in other words, it's been dead easy every time.
Time wise, 2 of us can usually get the entire job done in 2 days, depending on span, ease of access etc.
If it's the wall i'm thinking of i did the same in our gaff and have done many others since.
We started doing these jobs with pad stones and concrete lintel (depending on span). But now do them all with pad stones and steel lintel UB (universal beam) metric family.
Don't get confussed with RSJ, rolled steel joist. That looks similar but is much more flared where the center piece meets the outer parts and are of the imperial family, not used that much now and are more expensive than a UB.
I our experience most 30's semi's where almost made for this very mod and we've yet to encounter difficulties doing the job or in other words, it's been dead easy every time.
Time wise, 2 of us can usually get the entire job done in 2 days, depending on span, ease of access etc.
I probably shouldn't refer to him as a builder - more a plasterer who's been working for a building company for the past year doing both plastering and renovations and so has done several knockthroughs. I think he's just assuming the wall must be doing something structural if there's a bathroom wall sitting above it (albeit not directly above, 6" or so away). But, yes I agree, if its not doing anything its a waste of time and money to install a steel and so I am keen to determine if I can avoid it. I've just pulled the ceiling away on one of the sides and from what I can see there's a jjoist running literally 1 or 2 mm away from the wall edge (so not resting at all) and there's also daylight between them horizontally with the laths taking up the gap. On the other side (without removing the ceiling) there's a joist that at most would be 1 or 2 cm in line with the wall so could be resting slightly if the weight was being transferred through the lath (but I'm pretty sure there's still be daylight between them anyway). Does this sound right? Unfortunately, whilst I believe my freind is perfectly capable of installing a steel, I don't know any builders who would be able to tell me, confidently, if the wall is supporting or not. My limited experience of builders in the past is that they might tell me what will give them the most work and so most money (but my no means am I saying they're all like that) so if it turns out that it is not supporting ill do it myself unassisted meaning no job for them. Would a structural engineer tell me?
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Yes a structural engineer will tell you all you need to know as long as you pay him/her.
I think i'm on the correct wall...between the kitchen and the backroom, sometimes there was a serving hatch between the two. Above is the main bedroom and the bathroom, with a 4 inch wall between them.
So, if you make an opening in the lower wall what happens to the weight of the wall between the bedroom and bathroom?
Ergo, it needs to be supported.
If i'm thinking of the wrong wall then apologies.
I think i'm on the correct wall...between the kitchen and the backroom, sometimes there was a serving hatch between the two. Above is the main bedroom and the bathroom, with a 4 inch wall between them.
So, if you make an opening in the lower wall what happens to the weight of the wall between the bedroom and bathroom?
Ergo, it needs to be supported.
If i'm thinking of the wrong wall then apologies.
Yep, that's the one - serving hatch and all. I'm still not convinced what the wall is actually supporting as the wall above isn't directly above (so must be supported elsewhere I guess?) And the joists don't seem to be resting on it either? If it comes to it paying a strucutral engineer won't do any harm as they'll either tell me I don't need one or give me the size that I needm But, if I can avoid it - any money saved etc. And also it will look better if the ceiling is flush rather than a big steel sticking out ruining the line
I have no intention of doing anything until I'm really certain and I appreciate that you sound like you're better placed than me to say either way as it sounds like you've seen similar BUT (if nothing else other than my own sake) what is the wall supporting? If the wall above (the bathroom wall) is several inches away, supported in some other way I guess, and the joists don't touch the top of it, then what can it be supporting? If it was supporting a joist would,kt it be sitting direclt, centrally on the top of the wall??
As a thought & if what you say is correct.
You should be able to take up a few floor boards in the bedroom and find the top of the lower wall and with a torch look along it and see if anything is touching/being supported by the wall.
If this is so then it's the first i've known like that in a 30's house, but as they say, we're always learning.
You should be able to take up a few floor boards in the bedroom and find the top of the lower wall and with a torch look along it and see if anything is touching/being supported by the wall.
If this is so then it's the first i've known like that in a 30's house, but as they say, we're always learning.
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This wall was removed in our house before I bought it. But the bathroom/bedroom wall was changed at the same time and is now just a plasterboard wall.
More recently we've built an extension. The picture below is looking towards the front of the house. (The beam in the foreground at the top of the picture is where we've knocked out the back wall of the house)
This shows that no beam has been put in between kitchen and dining room. I did query this with the surveyor when I bought the house and he was quite non-committal about whether it was needed.
[/img]
More recently we've built an extension. The picture below is looking towards the front of the house. (The beam in the foreground at the top of the picture is where we've knocked out the back wall of the house)
This shows that no beam has been put in between kitchen and dining room. I did query this with the surveyor when I bought the house and he was quite non-committal about whether it was needed.
If his floor joists run parallel to the wall, and the bathroom wall is a few inches offset, what vertical load would the ground floor wall be carrying?
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Forgot to mention that it's also a mid terrace house built in 1930 - I wasn't just showing you a picture of my own project for the sake of it!
Since posting that comment i re-read the OP's original, and as i mentioned a few posts up if what he/she says is correct then possibly nothing, but the bathroom/bedroom wall above has weight and must be carried somewhere....strange that a ground floor wall is inches away, yet apparently not supporting anything.
As the ground- and first floor walls are offset, the first floor wall will be a non-loadbearing partition.
It will most likely be built in one of three ways;
1. in 'brick-on-edge', where the bricks are not laid flat as in the usual way, but on their narrow faces. This makes the wall thinner and saves weight);
or
2. a lath-and-plaster partition (less likely in a '30's house)' or
3. some patemted lightweight clay or concrete block.
Whatever the construction, it will be supported off a joist (sometimes a doubled joist for extra strength),or off bridging pieces across adjacent joists.
In cheaper houses, it could be built directly off the floorboards.
Although it seems odd not to have the walls lining through, the reason this was done is to provide optimum widths for the kitchen and room above, which may not necessarily be identical.
It will most likely be built in one of three ways;
1. in 'brick-on-edge', where the bricks are not laid flat as in the usual way, but on their narrow faces. This makes the wall thinner and saves weight);
or
2. a lath-and-plaster partition (less likely in a '30's house)' or
3. some patemted lightweight clay or concrete block.
Whatever the construction, it will be supported off a joist (sometimes a doubled joist for extra strength),or off bridging pieces across adjacent joists.
In cheaper houses, it could be built directly off the floorboards.
Although it seems odd not to have the walls lining through, the reason this was done is to provide optimum widths for the kitchen and room above, which may not necessarily be identical.
Thanks for the responses. I took the wall down yesterday and spent most of today doing tip runs as there was a surprising amount of rubble (possibly 40 sacks!). The bathroom wall above isn't supported directly on top of a joist but instead there is a joist an inch or so away (on at least one side). Apparently this is quite a normal thing to do in those days so I'm putting my faith in it not falling through one day.
I've taken the wall down to slightly beow the rest of the floor level as this is how the course of bricks lined up. I'm a bit unsure what I should do to bridge the gap now as I have: floorboards on the dining room side which are at the highest point, a small gap (1cm at the widest point), then the exposed top of the foundation wall which is about an inch drop down, then directly next to this a slight step up onto the old quarry tiles, which look to be built directly on a concrete base. I ws thinking of slapping some mortar etc. On top of the foundation wall to build it up a bit and then I can just cover the entire floor in hardboard before I tile or lay vinyl down. Will this be okay? I guess it doesn't need to be too neat if there's a hardboard sheet bridging the gap anyway? The issue I have is making everything level as the old kicthen and dining room are at different heights (maybe 1/2cm) - if I can avoid it I'd rather not lay a screed as it may be possible to do something with the quarry tiles in the future when I have the time and patience to sort thenm out
I've taken the wall down to slightly beow the rest of the floor level as this is how the course of bricks lined up. I'm a bit unsure what I should do to bridge the gap now as I have: floorboards on the dining room side which are at the highest point, a small gap (1cm at the widest point), then the exposed top of the foundation wall which is about an inch drop down, then directly next to this a slight step up onto the old quarry tiles, which look to be built directly on a concrete base. I ws thinking of slapping some mortar etc. On top of the foundation wall to build it up a bit and then I can just cover the entire floor in hardboard before I tile or lay vinyl down. Will this be okay? I guess it doesn't need to be too neat if there's a hardboard sheet bridging the gap anyway? The issue I have is making everything level as the old kicthen and dining room are at different heights (maybe 1/2cm) - if I can avoid it I'd rather not lay a screed as it may be possible to do something with the quarry tiles in the future when I have the time and patience to sort thenm out
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