Soil Stack & Building Regs

[lostforwords]

Norcon

I am with you on that!!

BUT (the big but) the Builder seems to think all is ok and I should take the matter to NHBC (he seems far to relaxed and hence why I raise the question).

If the Approved Document is just "guidance" and you can use alternative methods to achive the same PERFORMANCE how do you go about arguing the case.

I am aware that the Building Act actually states that for Court matters that not following the Approved Documents tends to presume non compliance (up to Builder to prove otherwise in this arena).

My other problem is that NHBC also did the Building Control, however they do not appearto have any records of what was inspected !!!!! Is it right for them to have a presumption of compliance ? Can they pass the drains on the plans alone ? What if the drains dont match the plans? The list is endless.

Just trying to ensure I dont end up with duff drainage that seriously devalues the house.

[lostforwords]

Picasso

My drawing is the other way round to the photo.

To clarify on the photo the horizontal flow would be from left to right (normally!)

I actually think the T is in totally the wrong position.........it should not feature!

[kevplumb]

Quote:

If the Approved Document is just "guidance" and you can use alternative methods to achive the same PERFORMANCE how do you go about arguing the case.

well if it ain't working it isn't acheiving it is a good starting point

__________________
a little thanks

goes a long way

[picasso]

many years ago I was working on a site with another plumber , he was doing the general plumbing and I was doing the heating, after a visit from building control the stacks had to be changed as the plumber had used a short radius 90 bend, it had to be changed to a long radius bend with foot (think they are called rest bends) it sounds like nhbc and your builder have dropped a **** and are trying to talk their way out of it.

[lostforwords]

Picasso

I agree. If Builder disagrees then you take them to NHBC under their "dispute resolution Service".......If NHBC also did the Building Control and missed the point, it somehow seems to be a loaded dice !

Will NHBC rule that their Approved Inspectors ****** up !

[doitall]

I would write a nice letter to the builder and the NHBC, explaining that something is clearly wrong to be getting the backup of waste products in the waste pipe.

I would give them say 14days to sort, or you be hiring a consultant and your own builder at the builders expense to get the drains re-laid, you may want to mention a four figure sum for compensation whilst you're at it.

[Hugh Jaleak]

Builder will be relaxed, he's sold the house, why should he worry? !!! He's not got the smell problems, and is probably confident he wont have to spend money sorting out anything major now! I have heard of the NHBC can sometimes be a 'closed shop', run by builders for builders, rather akin to the GMC for doctors, so I wouldnt hold my breath with them....

May be worth having a chat with Building Control at your local council. BCO should be able to advise if the arrangement you have is acceptable, although I'd be surprised if it is. Building regs state use of long radius bend, at that to me is basically the required standard of workmanship and design for buildings in this country, failure to do so can result in the works having to be redone to standard. However, BCO cannot inspect every property at every stage on every development.

If the BCO is prepared to come onside and isnt happy with the arrangement, then you could gain some decent ammo to fire at the builder and NHBC. If there have been a few built, all with this design flaw in the drains then im sure the builder wont want too much fuss making in case he ends up fixing the lot!

[lostforwords]

Interesting Post Script

Have done a little more research into Building Regs etc. Section 7 of the Building Act 1984 basically states that in civil (or criminal) proceedings, compliance with the approved documents suggests no liability and non-compliance suggests liability where non compliance with the Building Regulations is an issue.

Therefore up to builder to explain his way out of things if it gets to Court (and of course why should I settle for anything less on the way knowing I have the above to assist me !

[doitall]

The only way you can prove non-compliance is to get an independent to excavate the pipe, and physically check how it's installed.

Hence the need for a recorded letter to the builder, giving them the opportunity to rectify any problem, and of your intent if it's not done in X days.

[lostforwords]

Doitall

I think I have all the evidence I need from a CCTV survey from inside the pipe!

[Hugh Jaleak]

I think the onus would be on you then to prove the CCTV footage was of the pipe under your house if this got to court. Id agree with DIA, it needs a written assessment, possibly backed up by photographs, from a drainage engineer as to the situation. The court would likely need a clear explanation of the appropriate building regs, they have to make a decision based on the evidence in front of them, you need to present a good case if it went this far.....

The builder may have a good solicitor so be prepared!

[Nige F]

He may have a good solicitor, he sure as hell aint got any good drainlayers. That`s the way it`s all going today. Masses of paper+ Health safety and so on . Not 1 decent 2 x"O " Level Plumber/ drainlayer for frigging miles All gone Gas safe or retired.

[lostforwords]

I have a CCTV Survey and can have my engineer confirm it is our property, also Builder has had two surveys undertaken and has the video so that will conclusively prove what is at the location. Any argument and yet another survey can be undertaken.

NHBC can ask for tests and investigations to be done - so I can use this to gather yet more evidence if they will play ball !

THE CCTV shows no rest bend at bottom of stack, therefore Approved Document not followed, then up to Builder to prove it complies and not for me to prove any further. The Building act really says the builder wants to deviate from the guidance in the approved document he will need to prove his innocence rather than for the houseowner to prove guilt.

In view of facts (the present system can't get anywhere near that in the guidance) and the above a skillful solicitor would hopefully advise his client to sort the thing out rather than to risk the addition of my legal costs as well.

[Hugh Jaleak]

Best of luck with it lostforwords. Its not a satisfactory situation, at best unsanitary, at worst liable to block repeatedly over time. I do wonder where modern groundworkers learn drainlaying, like Nige F said, its more about having a piece of paper to say you've been on a safety course than what you actually know about doing the job I think.....

Years ago the sanitary inspector used to test drain runs by rolling a ball down, I wonder how many would pass that test today.....

[Norcon]

Not thats its relevant but building site I'm on at the moment (large nursing home) has pipes laid this week in a similar fashion to the Op's.
Extensive ground work is ongoing.
Might ask the builder tomorrow if they are soil pipes. (not that its any of my business)