Creating external corners in render the traditional way

Hi

The question is how do I form external angles in render the traditional way? I think beads look rubbish externally with a rough finished wall.

I have read posts by roughcaster and micilin about using an arris stick but I still dont get the method!

I have many windows that have been fitted into new openings and hence the render has been cut through so angle beads cant be used. I have attempted to build new corners but with limited success.

Cheers in advance

Stick it up your arris.

You don't do both edges at the same time. Roughcaster will tell you if you ask him nicely.

There are 2 ways to form external corners without using beads, but it's not easy explaining in words. You can form reveal corners/soffits, using a batten/s (arris sticks), which are temporarily fixed around a window/door opening, ( fixed to the wall face), the reveals/soffits are then rendered, floated and sponged, and left to set. I should also add that everything is scratch coated first (walls, reveals, soffits), then the arris sticks are fixed to the wall face around the reveals.Once the soffits and reveals have set, you then "very carefully" remove the arris sticks/battens.I normally give each stick a "gentle tap" along the edge to make a vertical crack between the edge of the timber batten and the finished rendered reveals. You can now "very carefully" pull out the nails and gently remove the 3 arris sticks/battens around each window/door. This particular method is one i would use if i was going to roughcast a wall,,, using the hard, newly rendered hard edges of the reveals to roughcast to. Make sure, that all the battens/arris sticks are plumb/vertical around each window/door reveal, and level/horizontal across the soffits. The thickness of the render around the windows/doors will depend on the very outside edge of the window frame. Set each arris stick to line up visually with the outside edges of the window frame, plumb/level them up, then fix temporarily ready for the render coat.

You can also roughcast the reveals/soffits by doing it the following way. After scratch coating everything, walls, reveals, soffits, fix the battens in the same way, coat the reveals/soffits very neatly with wet cement, then throw the roughcast chips onto the wet cement, let it set, then carefully remove the battens the same way as was said earlier, you're now ready to roughcast the main areas of wall.

Later, i'll try to explain to you, how to form a "wet returned external rendered/plastered corners" using a straight edges/arris battens, that are "held flat" against the face of the render/plaster, and moved/slid up and away, from one face of each wall corner/reveals, to the other, giving a perfectly finished, 90 degree wet rendered corner, without a corner bead in sight. There's far more work doing it without beading, but it's satisfiying work, and you need to watch it like a hawk, in case someone damages a corner before you've finished it.

Showing someone how to do this is far easier than trying to put it into words, and you learn better too. I'm sure some of the other lads on here will add to this topic as well.
I forgot to say that when you're working around windows etc, be careful not to get any render etc on the glass, or you will definitely scratch the glass windows. Keep the window frame clean too as much as you can. Cover the window cill with a layer of sand to keep it clean.
Right, back to the football.

Hi

Well all I can say is thankyou for your help, so basically all I need is bits of nice straight wood and some fixings!

I think I get what you mean, Ive drawn some pretty pictures, am I correct in what I think you do?

View media item 76432
1. Is there any product you put on the wood to stop the render from sticking to it and therefore less chance of the render falling off when you remove the batten? Or is this a no no because it will leave a residue on scratch coat and therefore could affect the bond when top coat goes on?

2. The job will be tyroleaned, do you slightly round off the hard edge you have just created?

3. How do you go about forming a bell cast in this traditional way, im thinking a piece of wood with 'something' stuck to it to form a drip groove maybe?

4. How do you form these? Use a larger piece of wood and then form the rest by hand? Do you need mesh in there as the render is much thicker?

View media item 76429
5. You mention rubbing up with a sponge, is this step required if tyrolean will be applied later? Ie can you just finish at the rubbing up with a float stage?

I really thankyou for taking the time to help, its an old building so I really want to avoid the clean edged modern look.

Many Thanks

Have a look on youtube. Type in:" How to render window reveals", and you"ll see a 15 minute video regarding battens/rendering around a window. His battens are held in place with temporary metal clips.
Because you are going to tyrolean finish the wall, you could render the reveals one day, let them set and cure, then render the front of the wall, carefully blending the render into the finished edge of the hard reveal. It wont matter whether you slightly round off the edge, although you could gently rub down the corner with a carborundum stone. With a corner formed/returned with wet render, a float would be run down the corner, just as the render is is going off, giving it a pencil round finish.

As regards to the beading over the window, i'd go for stainless bellcast beading. Here's another youtube video for you. Type in: "Bellcast above a window".

Cement render rubbed up/finished with a float is ok, but giving it a rub over at the end with a "clean damp sponge', takes out any marks left by the float, and also gives it a nice even finish. Tyrolean Finish is ok, but if the rendered surface it is put onto is poorly finished, you wont hide that. Wash the sponge out "very regularly too", otherwise it'll get clogged up, and use a "smooth sponge", not one of those rough sponges full of holes. I have a lovely square sponge, 4 or 5 inches square, and just under 2inches thick, it gives a great finish and keeps it's shape. So after all that,, yes, i would sponge finish the render if i were you.

Another very important thing. Trying to invisibly patch up Tyrolean, Roughcast or any other rough textured surface, is more or less impossible, it'll always be noticeable, especially in sunlight, and even more so with "new to old" repairs/renovations. Different materials, different colours and done in different times/generations. The best way forward, especially when there is an extensive amount of major external alteration/patching involved, is to bite the bullet, take it all back to brick or block etc, and literally, start from scratch, but not always possible i know, due to cost and time, but a patched up job will never look perfect. This project of yours would be a major task for an experienced tradesman to take on, so having a go yourself will be a big challenge for you. Good luck anyway.

Hi Roughcaster

I think it is great that after all the years on here that you are still willing to give such detailed answers to questions from idiots like me!!

Its been doing my head in all week about how to go about this job, not convinced with my approach, its a pain when you cant just throw the cash at the job. You are right about starting again, after speaking to a bloke from parex today ive decided to take it off and apply a lime based render in a nice cream, I think it will look great witht the green windows. The bloke was right he described all the symptoms i was seeing inside all because of the render not allowing the house to breathe or move in any way, i would have made it worse with a waterproofer in the scratch coat etc, the main part of the house is 200 ish years old although you cant tell that easy.

He wasnt pushy about it just sort of confirmed what I was thinking! I think lime render will give me a chance down the line aswell if any issues appear, the house is on a (tiny) road that has the odd artic flying down it and causes some vibration, s&c has no give and tyrolean it appears is a git to repair!!

Defo want to go at the corners and reveals the way you described, or should this not be done with lime for some reason? Does a nice rounded edge look good in lime?

Cheers

Thanks for the kind words in your reply Hondarider.

Yes, i do enjoy doing it, talking about it, reading about it, watching anything about it, etc,, yep, you've guessed it,, plastering, rendering etc etc. . It's been my life, i love it, it's never let me down, i still get a buzz seeing a finished room/wall/ceiling, it keeps me fit, it keeps me busy, and still provides me with an income to this day.
50 years ago this year, in early Spring, 1964, I very nervously picked up my first plasterers hawk and trowel, and stood in front of a loaded spotboard and stand, surrounded by 2 great plasterers and a fantastic labourer, on a small building site on Hunts Pond Road, Fareham, Hampshire, (the county of my birth). They taught me everything i know. Ihave been plastering ever since with different firms over the years, and became self employed way back in 1985, and i am still self employed to this day.

Anyway, enough about me. If you plan to use lime, i would go onto some specialist lime websites, and put you questions to them on there. I think a cream coloured lime render would look great too, with the other colours of your house, and would enhance the look. Whatever you do, keep in touch and let us know what you're doing, and how yer getting on,,,, maybe put up a couple of pics now and again, as a progress report for us all to have a look at.

Hey RC. Dig that old photo out.

Which one was that Joe, not me and Sir Christoper Wren standing together.

Spot on advice rc. Put that picture up of when you skimmed the Sistine chapel in Rome..

Hi All

I have been busy hacking all the render off, not shown in the photos but I have also repaired any damaged brickwork, put helical bar in where needed and replaced mortar that was basically like dust in places.

View media item 78842 View media item 78843 View media item 78844 View media item 78845
The scaffolding will be going up soon and the gears arrived, I want it right in my mind on how to proceed and so I have a couple of questions that would be great if someone can help me out on.

1. Do i 'need' a bellcast above doors or windows, I see many houses where there is just a right angle formed? If a right angle is ok I am trying for a more traditional look so therefore is a pencil round edge at the top of the window and a bullnose to the reveals a traditional look? What do you guys thinks works best?

2. I have gaps around door/ window frames varying from 2-15mm filled with expanding foam, what is the minimum thickness you would recommend for render at reveals? Ideally do you aim for the top coat meet the frame at its outer edge (to aid replacement at a later date)or do you overlap by say 5-10mm or is the idea to just get them all looking the same.

3. Thanks to you guys I understand how to form a traditional corner with arris sticks but how do you go about forming a bullnose with this method? I have a bullnose trowel. When I know the method I will go and practice before starting.

4. What 'test' do you use to know when to rub up with a float? also same for a sponge?

5. What size timbers do you normally fix at the corners of the building to form traditional corners 2x1, 3x1, roofing lath maybe or is something more rigid needed?

6. Same for a bellcast 25x50mm roofing lath maybe?

7. Previously the lead flashing was keyed into the render, I now have stripped walls but the render behind the flashing is still there, do you draw the flashing forward or remove if poss and remove the render behind or leave it, also do you leave the flashing forward whilst rendering and then cut into the render again later, put the flashing in and seal with lead sealant/ mortar? or render with the flashing in place (cant see this creating a decent joint tho)

If anyone helps with this I am really grateful I just want to have everything right in my head before I start.

Thanks again

[/img]