Were to run my cable?

spxy · 14 Jul 2004

"I don't see how using 6mm cable to supply the socket instead of 2.5mm can make any difference to the sound quality. "

The general belief is that its down mainly down to impedence.
And mains wiring does effect sound quality in proper hifi systems (not cheaper -£1000 stuff).
I have used my system just plugged into an extention lead instead of the wall socket and the sound got worse.If your not into or dont have experience of hi quality hifi it will be hard to understand this and what the differences are.But they are not imagination.
Every extra connection on the line causes problems, and this is in line with physics.Electricity runs in a circuit.Any point in the circuit can effect the entire flow in the whole circuit.Having high impedence points on your mains effects the operation of the connected equipment.
This is not a issue on most household items as most are not sensitive measuring devices, but the way amplifiers work and loudspeakers are as measuring work is a direct reflection of mains quality.

Now shoot me down in flames.

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spxy · 14 Jul 2004

Ban-all-sheds, this is from the article you linked me too (by the way i dont beleive in "special" mains cables)

"Because of the resistance of the supply authority's cabling and transformers (there are some massive cost considerations they must address), when a high power appliance is turned on, the mains voltage falls. This resistance (actually it is impedance) will cause the voltage to vary from one second to the next, with significant drops at the times when meals are being prepared (electric stoves switched on all over the place), and at other periods. I have measured the impedance at my house at 0.8 Ohms (we use 240V in Australia), so an appliance that draws 10 Amps (such as a heater) will cause the voltage to fall by 8 Volts. This could be reduced by increasing the size of my internal wiring, but the gains would be few and the cost high."

I just disagree with the last part.The price would be small for me about 6metres of wire and in my experience and with my level of equipment it has a big effect on sound in relation to the price.

AdamW · 14 Jul 2004

Oh dear oh dear. Someone has been reading too many hifi magazines. We had someone on here before who wanted a gold-plated MCB for a radial to his amp!

The reason that your expensive amp is so expensive is partly due to the power supply. Expensive amps have expensive power supplies, which can produce very stable and clean dc power from the ac input.

By all means, do the work and have an improved sound quality, but I assure you this will almost certainly be psychological. So whatever you do, don't do any actual scientific tests involving equipment as it will shatter this illusion. It is like those people who want the absolute purity of the sound, and refuse to use any form of tonal control. When just adding a touch of bass or treble would make them enjoy the music a lot more

I have some snake oil here if you want some to lubricate the volume control knob, adds 20dBs of dynamic range.

spxy · 14 Jul 2004

Adam, I firmly believe in science and experimenting to test results.You are ignoring the fact that the power amp modulates the power supply to the rest of the equipment.This in turn effects the turntable or CD player and pre amp , which are all voltage sensitive.The speed stability of a turntable for example is effected by fluctuating voltage which effects its sound as this thing is measuring groove variation in microns.
Dont assume I belive things that other people do, and if you want to prove my belief wrong do it providing evidence for the specific thing mentioned not throwing half a dozen other views that you assume i may belive when (when I dont)to try to make it look like I believe them, thus trying to mock me by association.
Also the power supply of the amp is not perfect.

AdamW · 14 Jul 2004

I'm not mocking you, I am just of the belief that installing your amp on a separate radial/ring won't really make any difference to what comes out of your speakers.

It would have more effect on it if you were talking about a cheap £50 amp. But as yours is a £1000+ audiophile unit then it will have a lot of careful design in there to prevent this being a problem.

You are still effectively on the same circuit as your fridge, washing machine, TV, and all these other electrically noisy items. My opinion is that if you want a clean unfluctuating supply, a better bet would be a power conditioner or UPS of some sort.

I apologise if I caused you offence, but I have seen hifi magazines and shops trying to peddle some pretty silly theories and products in the past and feared that they had got to you too!

My favourite being the £1000 bottle of oil that you are meant to rub your speaker cables with to rid them of static. Or the ultra-high grade digital interconnects (how can you improve a digital signal if the error checking has ensured that the signal is constantly error free?).

Anyway, what is your opinion on the new integrated amps that are coming in with a 1394 interface for SACD? I am trying to decide if it is better to have the slightly better decoder in the SACD unit and then have noise-prone analogue interconnects to the amp, ot if it is better to keep the signal in the digital domain until it is inside the amp "box"?

spxy · 14 Jul 2004

Thats ok , I like a good debate

I see things more like this.although a cheap amp may have a worse power supply it has a lesser magnifing effect on the signal that a better amp.
The better amp exposes more of what is happening with your CD player or record deck,so the effect of mains quality is more apparent.
Generally I have the washing machine etc off when doing "serious"listening.But if you admit these can have an effect , then you must understand than electrical appliances do effect the mains supply.
It the degree or importance that is the issue.
I've never put in a mains spur before so dont know if it will really improve things , but am optimistic due to experiencing good results with tightening mains connections and plugging directly into the wall rather than an extention lead.
This brought definate improvements beyound just my imagination.The easy test is ,does the wife notice with you asking her, or telling what you have done?
As to SACD I've no idea as I have no experience in that field.

ban-all-sheds · 14 Jul 2004

At the absolute worst case of a 13A load, 6m of 2.5mm² will drop 1.4V and 6mm² will drop 0.6V.

Gven that the UK mains supply is allowed to range between 216.2V and 253V, if any of your equipment suffers from a variation of 0.8V due to circuit cable size then you've got far bigger problems than deciding what size cable to use.

I do have experience of, and own, stereo equipment worth over £1000, and I've auditioned different items of equipment, and interconnects etc, at home, and heard differences.

Depending on the type of power supply in the equipment, there may be a case for a dedicated circuit for the stereo, as it may help avoid supply-borne interference from other items on the circuit, and also filters/conditioners etc to remove spikes.

But a 6mm cable to the socket instead of 2.5mm is snake-oil.

spxy · 14 Jul 2004

I believe its more down to modulating effects rather than absolute voltage levels.As the amp does its stuff its modulating the power into the other equipment.Even a small change would be benifical,after all this is all a sophisticated power supply would be correcting anyway.

Also the thicker the cable, the bigger its contact area in the joins, which reduces the impedence.At the micro scopic level mechanical joins are often very small.The larger the area you can join the lower the resistance.

ban-all-sheds · 14 Jul 2004

spxy said:
I believe its more down to modulating effects rather than absolute voltage levels.

What, exactly, are "modulating effects"?

As the amp does its stuff its modulating the power into the other equipment.

What does that mean?

Even a small change would be benifical,after all this is all a sophisticated power supply would be correcting anyway.

Can't have it both ways - if it's a sophisticated power supply it should be immune from input voltage variations of a few hundred millivolts.

Also the thicker the cable, the bigger its contact area in the joins, which reduces the impedence.At the micro scopic level mechanical joins are often very small.The larger the area you can join the lower the resistance.

The screw terminals in sockets are not microscopic. The diameter of a 2.5mm² conductor is 1.78mm and that of a 6mm² is 2.76mm. I don't know how much they flatten when the socket screws are tightened, but the only microscopic thing involved will be the difference in the contact areas, and therefore the difference in the overall resistance. You'd probably get more benefit by using a hard-wired flex outlet instead of a plug and socket, but it would still be insignificant.

To recap - the difference in the voltage drop between 6mm² and 2.5mm² is 0.8V. The difference between the upper and lower bounds of your incoming supply is 36.8V. If the 0.8V that you can influence is significant, then you're completely screwed by their 36.8V.

And anyway - why on earth are you increasing the electrical noise inside your amp by powering the other equipment via it? I didn't think that any decent amps still had IEC outlets for other items any more, but even if they do, I'd suggest not using them.

ban-all-sheds · 14 Jul 2004

PS - but if you want to wrestle 6mm² cable through surface trunking (watch out for the minimum bend radius!), go ahead......

andemz · 14 Jul 2004

Now then most people know on here that i am the hi-fi freak. Let me very quickly clear up an issue for you. Whether through an extension or from mains it's coming from the same place effectively. One of my mates got a bit carried away with the issue of treating his system with so much respect that he had difficulty in turning it on because the supply and connections were not worthy enough.

I have the state of the art 42 inch plasma Beo vision 4 connected to my Bang Olufsen Beo sound 9000 and the Beo link also. I run my amp, Bass guitar Aria Pro 2 and my Gibby all through the same system, which incidently is connected to an extension cable, this in turn is connected to my surround sound and there you have it a very expensive home concert with how i see it no flaws in it at all.

the difference that you are talking about is negligable and the ear couldn't actually pick it up. Trust me my system is a fortune i've been into it for ages.

My last example a dvd monster cable. I had mine shipped in from the USA for over £100 as it is gold plated and many other specifications that i won't bore you with. picture quality from my other cable = negligable... Say no more

AdamW · 15 Jul 2004

I finally got to play with a B&O plasma the other week. Not sure which model, but it was at least 42", possibly bigger. On a swivelling stand (by remote control of course!), integrated Sky+ box. All in, cost £12K a year or two back.

Dunno if I like your choice of Gibson amp there... Nothing compares to a Trace Elliott bass amp in my opinion

A little tip to any other bass players out there: if you are having a hard time with neighbours who play loud music, hook your hi-fi into your bass amp. I did this with my last neighbour. He had some weedy tinny midi system with super bass-x novostyle bass booster on it (probably a few more prefixes on that

). So I cranked my hi-fi a bit. He cranked his a bit more. So I turned mine up quite loud. He put his to full. So I put in my gig earplugs and fired up the Trace: 15" speaker, lots of power. Plenty of bass. Needless to say I couldn't hear his music above it, and proved that my winky was obviously far bigger than his

I wonder how many of his lightbulbs I resonated to death with that stunt?

spxy · 15 Jul 2004

Sorry Adam you are wrong.I heard the improvments and they are not imagination.You cant imagine a bass line being strong and deep and then soft and soggy.
Reducing the number of connections in your mains supply and making sure they are tight and clean, does make audible differences.
How large they are depends on other factors.
When iused an extention lead on my system the sound became grainy and soggy in the bass.Pluging into the wall gives a tighter crisper sound.
Of course I have a "real" hifi so this could be the difference.

AdamW · 15 Jul 2004

Are you directing that at me or Ban?

Either way, I still agree with what Ban said!

Yes, I suppose my hi-fi only cost £2K and is therefore lame...

I go the home cinema route, personally. I like music but films are my real thing. I was planning to buy a Yamaha DSP-AX750 this month but that money is going on physiotherapy (thankyou very much Phony Tony

). The 750 is meant to be rather good for music too. Not so good as your monster power amp with 0.0000000001% THD, but I'm getting it for me, not to impress a dog or a bat.

But I suppose this is the beauty of being a musician, I actually know about music so I can have a 100% full fidelity experience by playing it live for myself.

securespark · 15 Jul 2004

Phew! Advantage Adam!!

New balls, please....

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Were to run my cable?

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