Apollo Fanfare - please help

Neil999 · 12 Mar 2009

Hi all

this is my first post so hopefully I give all the required info (as I know little about plumbing) and someone can assist - if I need to put more information, please let me know

Current system (in top floor flat)
Apollo fanfare SI boiler in kitchen with hot water tank in hallway
British gas CH/HW controller
Electronic control thermostat

Problems - these all seem to be intermittant, but on a regular enough scale to be really annoying

1. The boiler does not always fire. It does not even attempt to spark for ignition - I just seem to get the whirring noise (of the fan I assume). If I notice this and then manually flick the boiler on and then off, it clicks and ignites no problem and will then be fine for the rest of the evening. This can happen in the morning or the evening when its timed to come on - leaving us with no HW or CH
British gas have changed the solenoid, PCB and the fan but it is still doing it - they do not seem to know whats wrong with it!

2. The boiler comes on at random times when both the timer and controller are off

3. The boiler/pipes sometimes make a loud grinding noise - seems to be just before the boiler is stopping its cycle

I have one of these homecare agreements with Brit Gas and have them out a few times, but the engineers seem to change one part, think its fine and then leave. I know the boiler is quite old, but at the moment I cant really afford to get another one.

If anyone could help with these issues it would be really appreciated

Thanks

WSPH · 12 Mar 2009

Neil999 said:
1. The boiler does not always fire. It does not even attempt to spark for ignition - I just seem to get the whirring noise (of the fan I assume). If I notice this and then manually flick the boiler on and then off, it clicks and ignites no problem and will then be fine for the rest of the evening. This can happen in the morning or the evening when its timed to come on - leaving us with no HW or CH
British gas have changed the solenoid, PCB and the fan but it is still doing it - they do not seem to know whats wrong with it!

Why did they replace those parts? based on what? did they leave any info behind?

2. The boiler comes on at random times when both the timer and controller are off

has it always done this before, or you have not noticed it until recently?

3. The boiler/pipes sometimes make a loud grinding noise - seems to be just before the boiler is stopping its cycle

sounds like you got a ship. check radiator valves, by pass valve, pump to pin point sound, could also be unclipped pipe work

tell BG to check air pressure switch and also check air pressure switch tube not kinked. its very difficult to diagnose a problem like this without being there.

bengasman · 13 Mar 2009

You have paid bg, so let them worry about it. keep calling them back as soon as a fault reoccurs, and eventually they will send a senior engineer when they get fed up with it.

nickso · 14 Mar 2009

bengasman said:
eventually they will send a senior engineer when they get fed up with it.

what is a senior engineer?

gas4you · 14 Mar 2009

nickso said:
what is a senior engineer?

Perhaps one close to being a senior citizen

Neil999 · 14 Mar 2009

The problem is that the things i menioned dont always happen when the engineers are here - so they say they cannot fix it unless they see it

The boiler not firing only seems to have every few days - and when i switch the boiler on and off its fine - almost like it just needed a kick start.

The only way that I can describe the noise (which seems to come from the flue coming out of the boiler) is like a grinding noise and then a slow fart! The BG man said that this was dirt in the system and would cost £600 to clean out -surely that cant be right??

I know what you men about the British gas contract but it means that I have to waste hours sat in waiting for them each time (now will be 5th time) - if I knew a bit more I might be able to point them in the right direction.

Any help would be massively appreciated

gas4you · 14 Mar 2009

Where are you 'flicking the boiler on and off'. On the boiler front, or at the wall isolator?

From point 2 in your OP it sounds an external control fault to me.

bengasman · 14 Mar 2009

though quite possible that your system needs cleaning, this has nothing to do with the boiler starting; complete cop out and poor attempt to get more money out of customer, not unheard of with ****ish gas.

nickso · 15 Mar 2009

bengasman said:
though quite possible that your system needs cleaning, this has nothing to do with the boiler starting;

the OP hasnt said that BG wanted to clean the system for that fault.

complete cop out and poor attempt to get more money out of customer

which is it? a complete cop out or quite possible the system needs cleaned out? do you consider the possibility that the system needs cleaned and a quote for that has been given to be good or bad advice?

nickso said:
what is a senior engineer?

well?

bengasman · 15 Mar 2009

Have not been on site so soiled system is 50/50 chance, and that only based on the presumption it is an open vent system.
No complaints about cold spots, poor heating, reoccurring need for bleeding that indicate sludge, and more importantly, no mention of engineer doing anything that leads to justification of his £600 diagnosis.
Chances are that it could do with a bottle of cleaner followed by a couple of draindowns a week later. £150 job that can be done by an apprentice in his first week. Only useful if followed by adding inhibitor, AND check for inhibitor level at every annual service. As the vast majority of bg customers do not get the boiler serviced, but only checked for gasleaks/fluetest every year, a clean would be fairly pointless.

Senior engineer in my book is someone who can diagnose most problems, including tricky ones, correctly and repair them by replacing ONLY the failing parts.
Some companies use the term “breakdown” engineer to separate them from “installation” engineers or “service” engineers; the latter being those whose usefulness ends with physically cleaning open flue boilers.

I really thought you were perfectly aware what a senior engineer is, just goes to prove I am not infallible.

nickso · 15 Mar 2009

bengasman said:
Have not been on site so soiled system is 50/50 chance, and that only based on the presumption it is an open vent system.
No complaints about cold spots, poor heating, reoccurring need for bleeding that indicate sludge, and more importantly, no mention of engineer doing anything that leads to justification of his £600 diagnosis.
Chances are that it could do with a bottle of cleaner followed by a couple of draindowns a week later.

lets be honest we are both guessing here as neither of us have the required information and wont get iut unless we visit the property.

you are quite happy to take a chance on your online diagnosis being correct yet you are quick as any other to instantly doubt what has been said whilst the guy was standing in front of the boiler simply because he is BG. welcome to glaziers club.

FYI if the h/e is kettling from poor water quality BG wont replace it unless the customer is prepared to do something to stop it happening again.

£150 job that can be done by an apprentice in his first week. Only useful if followed by adding inhibitor, AND check for inhibitor level at every annual service. As the vast majority of bg customers do not get the boiler serviced, but only checked for gasleaks/fluetest every year, a clean would be fairly pointless.

it maybe is as simple as a bottle and a drain down. it also might be one of those systems so sludged up it needs two goes to clean it right.

the question of BG's servicing policy is well documented on here. essentially if the customer is not happy with that service as dictated by the T+C's then they know what to do.

i'm quite happy to re-inhibit a customers system every year, they will pay for the chemical though. i disagree that a clean is pointless if the inhibitor is not checked too. anything is better than mud where water should be.

nickso · 15 Mar 2009

bengasman said:
Senior engineer in my book is someone who can diagnose most problems, including tricky ones, correctly and repair them by replacing ONLY the failing parts.
Some companies use the term “breakdown” engineer to separate them from “installation” engineers or “service” engineers; the latter being those whose usefulness ends with physically cleaning open flue boilers.

I really thought you were perfectly aware what a senior engineer is, just goes to prove I am not infallible.

sorry forgot about this bit.

your understanding of what a senior engineer is is irrelevant since the term doesnt exist in BG. all are equal in standing and payscale but obviously their knowledge differs. "they" will not "get bored" and send a "senior engineer".

if you dont like the eng in your house then you can ask, but not be guaranteed, to get someone you do like.

Slugbabydotcom · 15 Mar 2009

1.Air pressure switch and tube/s needs checking out

2. If the boiler comes on of its own accord there's either a wiring fault or a frost stat bringing it on

3. Try running it with the stat set to low. It could be one of a few things this but these boilers often groan a bit
Pump over run stat could be cutting off early. Perhaps someone has wired the pump into the programmer instead of the boiler

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Apollo Fanfare - please help

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