DIYnot
Local | Network
   DIYnot > Forums
Local | Network
DIYnot Network Local DIYnot Network Local  
  Forum IndexForum Index     RulesRules    HelpHelp     Join FREERegister Free     About CookiesCookies     SearchSearch     LoginLogin 

gas hob in kitchen opening onto garden room

Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DIYnot.com Forum Index > Plumbing and Central Heating
Search this topic :: View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
grandad666

from United Kingdom

Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:21 pm Reply with quote

Hi, newbie here, I've read tens of posts but still I can't get a clear picture of what needs to be done to fit a dual fuel cooker (gas hob) in my kitchen. Here's the situation: kitchen approx. 32m3 volume, it has no direct opening to outside air but instead has a window onto a "garden room" built in front of it. The garden room, size approx. 4x4x2.5m, is directly connected to the open air (NO DOOR, just a big arch >2m2). In the kitchen there is an extractor with switch on the wall, connected directly to outside air through the roof, no idea what kind of flow. The previous owner had a gas cooker in the kitchen, but when my new cooker was delivered the gas guy refused to install it because "the kitchen has no opening to the outside air".
Now: either the old owner had an irregular installation (possible), or the (young) gas installer didn't quite know his stuff. I have two questions:

1. What needs to be done to allow the installation of a gas cooker in the kitchen? Is the requirement of a "window or door directly connected to outside air" really absolute? Can't it be substituted by a big enough extractor or chimney?
2. Any honest, reliable gas specialist in Cambridge that I can contact for a second opinion?

Thanks
Back to top
 Alert Moderators

If you do not want to see this advert, click here to login or if you are new click here to join free.
Agile

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 51901
Location: London,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 3222 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:40 am Reply with quote

It seems you have not had a first opinion yet.

The problem is that any gas engineer has to make a judgement in cases like yours. He could conclude that the garden room is already adequately connected to the garden as to become the "outside".

If he is not happy with that, then I thought that the Gas Regs provided a solution. A kitchen without outside windows or doors is allowed with fanned ventilation moving about 3 m every 10 minutes is what I thought but a further check in my gas regs book does not find it. Hopefully somebody else can find it as otherwise I cannot advise it until further confirmation is obtained.

Tony
Back to top
The following user says thank you to Agile for this useful post:
grandad666 (14 Jun 2010)
 Alert Moderators
45yearsagasman

from United Kingdom

Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 4730
Location: Norfolk,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 794 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:24 am Reply with quote

This regulation has been changed because of conservatories being built to cover windows and doors which originally provided vents to kitchens direct to outside. An engineering judgement has to be made and as I understand your situation with the large opening to outside from your garden room the I believe the installation would comply.Agile is correct when he mentions fanned ventilation.Do you have any vents fitted to the existing window and where does the kitchen door communicate to?
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
Agile

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 51901
Location: London,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 3222 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:26 am Reply with quote

I am sure that I was correct about fanned ventilation being an option for a kitchen with no outside doors and windows.

However, I cannot find it in my Viper book! Do you know why?

Another anomaly, I thought that with no windows then an opening door to the outside was also acceptable but my book does not mention that.

Where is Kirk or Chris R to give the trainer's viewpoint?

Tony
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
grandad666

from United Kingdom

Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:28 am Reply with quote

gasman, thanks for your reply
45yearsagasman wrote:
Agile is correct when he mentions fanned ventilation.Do you have any vents fitted to the existing window and where does the kitchen door communicate to?


The window has no vents, there is a door onto a small corridor (2x1.3m) leading to the bathroom and out to the garden room. There is another door to the sitting/dining room. The gap under the doors is probably slightly less than 1cm, which I understand is normally required for good ventilation, but will be fixed if needed. Overall, a fairly standard layout (see image).
The size of the kitchen is 3.8x3.5m, everything else in the image is more or less to scale, if you need precise measurement I will provide them.

Login to view this image
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
Agile

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 51901
Location: London,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 3222 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:37 am Reply with quote

Any DIYers reading should note the very good descriptions given by this poster!

Looking at the plan, The arch is so remote from the kitchen and little more than an open door and my view would be that its inadequate to rely upon as making the garden room into the "outside".

Others may have different views.

Tony
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
grandad666

from United Kingdom

Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:13 am Reply with quote

Agile wrote:
Any DIYers reading should note the very good descriptions given by this poster!


thanks. I have a "very high attention to detail", or as most people put it, "I can be a pain in the a**e"... icon_wink.gif

Agile wrote:
Looking at the plan, The arch is so remote from the kitchen and little more than an open door and my view would be that its inadequate to rely upon as making the garden room into the "outside".


it is in fact pretty far, and the air in the garden room feels "enclosed" even if open to the outside, so my hope is that something can be done with the extractor. I have a suspicion that it has been put there with the garden room, to provide additional ventilation, so it might already be ok, but being a bit old maybe it is no longer enough for current norms. Any advice on that: will an extractor be enough, what air flow is required? Will my wife have to kiss goodbye her dream of a gas cooker, after many years of electric hob in a flat?
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
Agile

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 51901
Location: London,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 3222 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:38 am Reply with quote

I cannot find legislation to cover fanned legislation but I remember about 3m every 10 minutes.

Thats almost impossible to measure unless you have a air speed meter. A guess would be given by seeing how large a cloud of smoke is produced by extracting the smoke from a boiler flue testing smoke pellet. They give a fixed volume of smoke over about 30 seconds and so if it was 3m and the fan cleared it within 10 minutes then that could be deemed to be adequate.

BUT these figures are only my recollections and I cannot find anything written in my books to substantiate this. So until anyone can corroborate and confirm that it is permitted you should not make any assumptions.

Tony
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
grandad666

from United Kingdom

Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:04 pm Reply with quote

Agile wrote:
...So until anyone can corroborate and confirm that it is permitted you should not make any assumptions.


thanks Tony. I agree, and of course without seeing the actual house it is impossible to give firm advice, so I'm going back to my question #2: any recommendations for a gas specialist in the Cambridge area?


Last edited by grandad666 on Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
Agile

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 51901
Location: London,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 3222 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:08 pm Reply with quote

There are two who post here but they have not commented and may see this as being likely to be a "free advice" visit without any prospect of significant work resulting from it.

Does your boiler need servicing?

Tony
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
grandad666

from United Kingdom

Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:52 pm Reply with quote

Agile wrote:
There are two who post here but they have not commented and may see this as being likely to be a "free advice" visit without any prospect of significant work resulting from it.

Does your boiler need servicing?

Tony


No, my boiler has been serviced by the previous owner just a few weeks ago (we moved in last week). Honestly I don't know, I guess it is up to the individual to decide whether visiting my house is going to generate enough work to justify it. There are actually some other smaller issues: the room thermostat doesn't seem to be working, and I'd like to install thermostatic valves on the radiators. I guess if anyone is thinking about taking up the job, we could discuss it in private.
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
Agile

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 51901
Location: London,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 3222 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:33 pm Reply with quote

You could look at regular posters here in Cambridge and contact them through their profile if they give their email or telephone and sometime by sending a forum private message if its enabled.

Some seem to want to stay totally anonymous though which always seems strange to me.

If course if they are employed then they are not expected to do private jobs by their employers.

Tony
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
kirkgas

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 4815
Location: Lanarkshire,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 451 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:08 pm Reply with quote

taken from BS5440 pt2 2009
7.4 Internal kitchens
Open-flued appliances in internal kitchens shall be provided with
ventilation in accordance with 6.3. Flueless appliances in internal
kitchens shall be ventilated in accordance with Table 6.
COMMENTARY ON 7.4
For further information on how to provide ventilation in these
circumstances, for England and Wales see Approved Document F to
the Building Regulations [16], for Scotland, the Building Regulations in
Scotland [12] or Technical Standard Part K, Ventilation [17], and Gas
Safe Register Technical Bulletin 005, Gas cookers in internal kitchens
Ventilation requirements [18] or CORGI Technical Bulletin 184, Gas cookers
in internal kitchens [19].

table 6 mentioned above states over 10m3 requires an openable window or equivilent, you need to confirm with the local building control what is classed as equivilent, years ago we got Glasgow building control to visit a job we had, internal kitchen refurb job, about 100 kitchens, i asked if we fitted a 19mm overflow pipe behind the units at low level, through the wall into the bathroom then to outside with a bylaw 30 kit (to have the end of the pipe screened) he initially said no but would check, he came back and said as there was no size mentioned for the equivilent to an openable window it was open to interpretation and was up to us, so we fitted it, never had any problems,
if the job the OP is talking about has a window that is covered by some sort of canopy then the interpretation is whether it is outside or not, again perhaps clarification needs to be sought on the description of the "building" round the window, big long ramble and perhaps not much help, hey ho nothing changes icon_lol.gif
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
lightning

from United Kingdom

Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 1147
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom
Thanked: 155 times

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:03 pm Reply with quote

If no openable window,the building regs can provide alternatives such as

mechanical ventilation
passive stack or additional permanent ventilation
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
grandad666

from United Kingdom

Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Cambridgeshire,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:56 pm Reply with quote

lightning wrote:
If no openable window,the building regs can provide alternatives such as

mechanical ventilation
passive stack or additional permanent ventilation


That's what I was thinking: it must be possible to provide ventilation by some other means! And here is where I need an expert opinion. I'm quite prepared to cut a few holes to make my wife happy! Also, we have a beautiful cooker sitting in the garage at the moment and we don't have long to decide whether to return it or to keep it.
Back to top
 Alert Moderators
Search this topic :: View previous topic :: View next topic  
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DIYnot.com Forum Index > Plumbing and Central Heating All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Similar Topics   Replies   Views   Posted 
Flue opening 3 220 Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:25 pm
No hot water - 2-port valve opening but boiler not called 10 800 Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:24 am
Vokera Suppliers - Edinburgh Sunday Opening 3 420 Sun May 30, 2010 9:15 am
Danfoss zone valve constantly opening/closing 14 620 Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:11 pm
Back boiler builders opening (Gas) 14 581 Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:53 am


 
DIYnot
Find an Expert | Find a Supplier | Search DIYnot.com
Network | Advertising | Newsletter
DIY | DIY How To | @home | DIY Wiki | DIY Forum
By using this site you agree to our Terms of Service / Disclaimer.
Please read our Privacy Policy. Copyright © 2000-2014 DIYnot Limited.