Colin Jacobson

Joined
14 Sep 2006
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Location
Gloucestershire
Country
United Kingdom
Colin,
Please tell us what you do for a living. If you are trainee you may be given some slack if your attitude is fine.

If you are a tradesman charging for your services then please choose another career or do some intense studying before letting yourself loose on the public !

If you are just a wind-up merchant then please stop wasting our time !
 
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Good luck with that Ricicle, the guy cant answer questions. :LOL: :LOL:

I am the one asking the Qs and not getting proper replies. A groups of so-called pro's write that I must read BS ??? or whatever. In short they do not know, but do not want to state that. On some threads the so-called pro's contradict each other. I then echo it back,as a Q, as I interpret the answers, and then get accused of winding people up. One thread went on and on and on and no one answered the simple Q in post 1. Many just give opinions and I want the regs on it. With so many so-called pro's here I would assume someone would know the reg and type one or two sentences. Again woolly answers come back and I am accused of winding people up. Most post are just not helpful being personal insults or someone thinking he is funny. Take away the dross posts and the threads can be short and meaningful and to the point.

Then this lunatic who sent me abusive PM's just after I came on the forum who babbles tripe named, ban-all-sheds. This one is a full conference case at the psychiatric unit.

Amazing. But it can be fun reading back on it.
 
Colin, for what it's worth, I do agree with some of what you've said about bickering and the like. I get a little fed up with it too. However, you will always have disagreements between professionals regarding BS7671 and, in some areas, it's possible to misinterpret what is actually being asked of you.

If you haven't bothered to read the regs yourself then I'm not sure how you can expect to make an informed decision - do you always believe everything someone else tells you?

This also smacks of hypocrisy:

A groups of so-called pro's write that I must read BS ??? or whatever. In short they do not know, but do not want to state that.

Many just give opinions and I want the regs on it.

If you want regs, then you need a copy of BS7671. End of, I'm afraid.
 
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If you want regs, then you need a copy of BS7671. End of, I'm afraid.

Quite right.

The Wiring Regulations, BS 7671, do not give prescriptive solutions for wiring design. How could they? It would be like trying to find your way from London to Glasgow using the Highway Code.

There should not, by the way, be any significant disagreement about what regulations actually apply and what those regulations require, but there may be differences of opinion as to what design would meet those requirements. Unfortunately and all too often, posters are quick to make assumptions or state that 'they think that', or they've 'been told that' particular requirements apply. (A good example is a recent reply that stated that outbuildings need RCD protection, when no such regulation exists, although certain aspects of installations in such buildings may well need such protection.)

There is no point in anybody asking 'what the regs are' in respect of any job they want to do, because for every job there will be relevant requirements in all seven parts of the standard (including the definitions!). That's why a number of guides exist, although they should all caution you to refer to the regs themselves. So, if you want an honest answer (or opinion) ask an honest question about what it is you want to do and somebody will be able to tell you without all the bickering.
 
Colin, for what it's worth, I do agree with some of what you've said about bickering and the like. I get a little fed up with it too. However, you will always have disagreements between professionals regarding BS7671 and, in some areas, it's possible to misinterpret what is actually being asked of you.

If you haven't bothered to read the regs yourself then I'm not sure how you can expect to make an informed decision - do you always believe everything someone else tells you?

This also smacks of hypocrisy:

A groups of so-called pro's write that I must read BS ??? or whatever. In short they do not know, but do not want to state that.

Many just give opinions and I want the regs on it.

If you want regs, then you need a copy of BS7671. End of, I'm afraid.

I have dealt with electrical system as a part of jobs, most engineers have. I have little idea of current domestic regs in the UK, dealing mainly with commercial US. I do not interpret regs as we give it to others to do that. Someone else will find out the maximum length of conduit between inspection boxes and the likes. I am not interested in all that and have better things to do.

In UK domestic regs, which over the years have changed and confused, like that eqip' bonding confusion, I have little knowledge. Hence why I came here. What is illegal here is legal elsewhere, etc. Knowing electrical system and knowing the regs are two different things.

The Qs I ask are simple and not involved and at least one so-called pro here should be able to give a one or two sentence reply, even if just reciting the regs. When there are disagreements, then it is a matter of reading what was written and maybe going elsewhere for the specific info.

It is clear many of these hands-on sparks on here are lacking in more ways than one. However the odd civilized gem does shine through.
 
You cannot ask open ended questions and expect a simple reply. You are not specific in your questions. You state that you want regs, not opinions but will freely give three options to someone in one thread where none of them comply with the regs and when questioned on this, fail to answer any of them. Then you say that a "superb engineer" gave you these three options.

If this "supurb engineer" is infact a real person who you meet up with and look at internet forum threads together (where he laughs) then why do you feel the need to come here for advice?

No one has agreed with you on anything you of "superb engineer" have said.

You do not answer questions which will help you understand why you are incorrect.

You do not answer questions on a particular topic that will help you get the specific answer you want.

As mentioned, if you wanna talk regs then you need the book, it is not very expensive and will help you alot.

People are going to suggest you are a wind up merchant and until you learn about the regulations and then re-read your posts you will never see that they are all correct in assuming you are a wind up merchant.

BS7671 is an a4 book about an inch thick. It is not worded like this - "an alarm must have and RCD, so must an out house, but a fridge is fine" It is not a book about wiring houses.

If you want specific answers on here you need to ask specific questions without any variables. This is because you are really asking people to do circuit design for you. All the relevant calculations and situations are within BS7671.
 
I have dealt with electrical system as a part of jobs, most engineers have. I have little idea of current domestic regs in the UK, dealing mainly with commercial US. I do not interpret regs as we give it to others to do that. Someone else will find out the maximum length of conduit between inspection boxes and the likes. I am not interested in all that and have better things to do.

I'm not at all familiar with US electrical regs, but in England, all electricians, even those not designing circuits, should have at least some level of familiarity with the regs.

From the questions you've asked, it seems that you are designing or intend to design and install new circuits, or make alterations to existing wiring. I still maintain that anyone doing such work will need a copy of BS7671. In fact, the information you wanted could have even been gleaned from the OSG, which is significantly cheaper than BS7671 and is generally useful to have. There's no excuse not to have a copy.
 
If you want regs, then you need a copy of BS7671. End of, I'm afraid.

Quite right.

The Wiring Regulations, BS 7671, do not give prescriptive solutions for wiring design. How could they? It would be like trying to find your way from London to Glasgow using the Highway Code.

The regs ARE the Highway code. They tell you how it should be done to get from London to Glasgow. I want to run a cable from front to back of house and the regs say how it should be done to make it safe. The Highways Code say how you drive to Glasgow safe as well.

The Highway code is NOT law. It is just that.,.,.a code.

British Standards is NOT law. They are recommendations. The building regs are a part of the law of the land. Only when a specific BS is pointed to the building regs would that be law. Few people know that.

Many times we have just been outside a BS, but an informed and intelligent assessment means our way is better in that situation - economically and practical. Then some dork comes backs from another organisation and points to the BS. We then have to remind them what BS actually is, and go ahead.
 
British Standards is NOT law. They are recommendations. The building regs are a part of the law of the land. Only when a specific BS is pointed to the building regs would that be law. Few people know that.

We all know that. However, there are very few situations where you would be able to stand up in a court of law and provide a satisfactory explanation as to why you chose not to follow the applicable BS.

In any case, I don't see what value this fact adds to your argument. Perhaps we should all just decide that, as BS7671 is not law, none of us will own a copy, and we'll all just start wiring things up however we want because "our way is better in that situation - economically and practical". After all, it would be more economical and practical if we didn't have the RCD protect the majority of lighting circuits, wouldn't it?
 
The regs ARE the Highway code. They tell you how it should be done to get from London to Glasgow. I want to run a cable from front to back of house and the regs say how it should be done to make it safe.

They do not, you do not for example tell you which roads you should drive on to get there, when to change gear, or when to stop gawking at the pretty lass in the car in the next lane and concentrate on not running into anything. However they do tell you what speeds you must not exceed on different types of road, have requirements that you must not drive the wrong way up the motorway, and must pay due car and attention.

The wiring regulations, likewise, they do not tell you how to lift floor boards, how to fish cable through, etc, they make requirements of how far away from the surface of the floor it must be run, and the building regulations tell you where you may or may not drill joists, etc
 
In order to help Colin Jacobson successfully, I respectfully suggest he buys himself a copy of BS7671, and a copy on the On Site Guide.
 
You cannot ask open ended questions and expect a simple reply.

Most were quite specific.
This recent one was far from specific:

I recall someone here in the past few days wrote that from 2008 all circuit must RCD protected. Under the current regs, is it possible to have an non-RCD protected circuit? Benefits arise from Alarms and freezers from non RCD protection.


The Qs I ask are simple and not involved and at least one so-called pro here should be able to give a one or two sentence reply, even if just reciting the regs.
In the example of that question you are very wrong.

It is not possible to give a one or two sentence reply to "is it possible to have an non-RCD protected circuit?"

A truthful one word answer could be given, and that answer is "yes", because it is possible to have an non-RCD protected circuit, but that wouldn't be of much practical use to you because in order to actually have a non-RCD circuit you have to do, and consider, many things.

To use the Highway Code/Rod Traffic Acts analogy, a simple and accurate answer to "am I allowed to drive at 70mph in this country?" would be "yes".

But that simple "yes" ignores the fact that you may not do it on all roads, it ignores the fact that some of the roads where some people may do it are barred to learners, it ignores the fact that you may not do it in all types of vehicle..

It's the same with your question about RCDs - it simply cannot be answered in one or two sentences and for you to expect people to "just recite the regs" is expecting people to type out several paragraphs of regulations for you because you don't appreciate the complexity and multifacetedness of the question and the proper answer and won't obtain and read the regulations for yourself.

Thinking back to your question a couple of weeks ago about a shaver socket in the bathroom, as I recall that was pretty simple but you got extraordinarily bent out of shape because you didn't want the answer to be, basically, "no".

You give the impression that you don't actually care what the regulations say, you just want simple answers which agree with what you've already decided you are going to do.


I am the one asking the Qs and not getting proper replies.
No - what you're doing is repeating the questions when you don't like the answers you get. And you're also giving advice and refusing to explain why it is good and how it complies with the regulations.


Take away the dross posts and the threads can be short and meaningful and to the point.
Taking away your refusal to explain your advice no matter how may times you are asked would also shorten the threads.


Then this lunatic who sent me abusive PM's just after I came on the forum who babbles tripe named, ban-all-sheds.
And that you've got to stop.

You may well not like the answers I give you, and you may well not relish the prospect of trying and failing to answer questions which will expose your ignorance and your errors, but you know that you could not point to what I write and show that it is babble, and to persist with that assertion just makes you look more and more foolish, and more and more driven solely by a personal dislike rather than reasoned, logical and intelligent thought.
 

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