To save money, I want to do the basic work to rewire my flat's lighting circuit. I'll ask a professional to do the important stuff and certify, but the basic problem I see is that the ceilings are (very) old lathe & plaster that I'm worried about destabilising - so I don't want to cut into them to run the new wires. Is it possible / how difficult would it be to pull new wires through using the old wires?
Lighting circuit rewire
- Thread starter Wooody
- Start date
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1) You cannot get an electrician in after you've done work and have him "certify" it - it doesn't work that way.
2) Get an electrician with experience of getting wires through L&P ceilings to do the lot - there are various tricks of the trade.
2) Get an electrician with experience of getting wires through L&P ceilings to do the lot - there are various tricks of the trade.
Depends how they're run, is it singles in the old conduit or T&E? Singles in conduit you should be able to pull through. T&E run through the joists, I've always found is liable to catch and damage the insulation.
I'd always approach from above, i.e. lift the floor rather than cut the ceiling. I take it that's tricky because it's not your floor? But it's still the best way. If you can't work something out with your upstairs neighbour, the old lathe and plaster has to come out sometime before it falls down anyway.
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xr4x4: There's a flat above, so no loft.
ban-all-sheds: all I'm suggesting is working under the professional's supervision, doing the donkey work, but even if that's impossible, I still need to know whether you (or he) can pull new wires through in that situation.
ban-all-sheds: all I'm suggesting is working under the professional's supervision, doing the donkey work, but even if that's impossible, I still need to know whether you (or he) can pull new wires through in that situation.
Beelzebub666: Some of this wiring is very, very (let's make that 3 verys) old. I'm not joking when I say that there's a (redundant) switch I found on an original wall, behind a (1950's?) stud wall, that may be part of one of the first lighting circuits...ever. The house is Edwardian, so it's genuinely possible. I have to assume that the some of this wiring hasn't been touched for decades - I can't actually see much of it.
I very much doubt that you will be able to pull the new cable through with the old especially if there is no conduit present. Fish rods can bend but not enough to allow you pull T&E or singles from the switch through 90 degrees to your ceiling rose.
As I see it you have five choices.
1. Leave it as it is.
2. Gain access from above.
3. Rip down the current ceiling and replace with plasterboard etc.
4. Create a false ceiling and run your cable through that.
5. Use ceiling mounted pull switches instead of wall mounted ones - this might allow you thread the cable from one ceiling hole to the other.
As I see it you have five choices.
1. Leave it as it is.
2. Gain access from above.
3. Rip down the current ceiling and replace with plasterboard etc.
4. Create a false ceiling and run your cable through that.
5. Use ceiling mounted pull switches instead of wall mounted ones - this might allow you thread the cable from one ceiling hole to the other.
All I can tell you is if I were doing it, and i've done similar DIYing on occasion, I'd want to see what I'm about. Lift the floor, or hole the ceiling. Or if you want dirt cheap and don't care about appearance, you can consider surface trunking. The really, really old stuff ive seen has been run as fibre sheathed singles in metal conduit which runs along the top of the joists, notched in. If that's reused it should still be checked that it's all properly earthed and intact.
Beelzebub666: I know you're right and I ought to ask the upstairs neighbour if I can lift his (newish carpets & floor)) or bite the bullet and replace the ceilings - but that's a whole different cost basis, not to mention the disruption. Thanks for your help.
Riveralt's option 4 would sound to be the best method.
Schedule of items:
Find a tame electrician who will let you run cables under his direction.
Batten out ceiling and run all your cables.
Then get the tame electrician to check the wiring you have done.
Get it plasterboarded and plastered
Get sparky to do final connect and test, certify, etc..
Schedule of items:
Find a tame electrician who will let you run cables under his direction.
Batten out ceiling and run all your cables.
Then get the tame electrician to check the wiring you have done.
Get it plasterboarded and plastered
Get sparky to do final connect and test, certify, etc..
If you really have difficulties getting access to the ceiling then cornice trunking is an option.
It's usually going to be possible to poke a cable from somewhere on the ceiling to somewhere on the perimeter.
The surface mounted square- or D-section trunking and accessories are fairly hideous, but cornice trunking on its own is fairly inconspicuous.
Other options include wall lights, low voltage spots on cable systems from wall-to-wall, and track lighting.
Depending how your flats are built, your ceiling might not be your neighbour's floor - there might be an intervening layer.
If the L&P ceiling is in poor condition then battening and a new false ceiling may also be a possibility.
However you will be surprised where an ingenious sparky can get a cable to with the aid of cable rods / ferret / small child as appropriate.
It's usually going to be possible to poke a cable from somewhere on the ceiling to somewhere on the perimeter.
The surface mounted square- or D-section trunking and accessories are fairly hideous, but cornice trunking on its own is fairly inconspicuous.
Other options include wall lights, low voltage spots on cable systems from wall-to-wall, and track lighting.
Depending how your flats are built, your ceiling might not be your neighbour's floor - there might be an intervening layer.
If the L&P ceiling is in poor condition then battening and a new false ceiling may also be a possibility.
However you will be surprised where an ingenious sparky can get a cable to with the aid of cable rods / ferret / small child as appropriate.
Cutting into the ceiling will cause some damage, but how weak/'blown' is it? I have never caused major damage to one yet.
If the old cables are flat 2 core cables that haven't been fixed to the above joists then you should be able to use most of them as draw wires. The switch drops may not be so easy. If the wiring is in very narrow lack metal tube it is unlikely you will be able to use these. Newer conduit will be ok, as there is more likely to be an inspection box at each point.
Wall lights would solve the ceiling problem, as all the wires can run under your floor, assuming it is floorboards. Then you have the problem of chasing channels into the wall. If you do this, use oval conduit, for the NEXT rewire.
There are a lot of nice wall lights available now, including bathrooms.
A good electrician should be able to rewire the ceiling lights without too much damage. As mentioned, he will fish along the joists as much as possible, and will notch the ceiling under the joists where he can't fish.
He will also take advantage of any cupboards etc to hide cable in.
Adding a suspended ceiling would of course make work easier from the electrical point of view, and may allow you to fit recessed downligters.
If you did go to the expense of lowering the ceilings take the opportunity of installing any other wiring you need or may need in the future.
It may prove a quicker and neater job if you left the job to the electrician, assuming he is good and is experienced he should be able to install wiring in the ceiling with minimal disruption.
If the old cables are flat 2 core cables that haven't been fixed to the above joists then you should be able to use most of them as draw wires. The switch drops may not be so easy. If the wiring is in very narrow lack metal tube it is unlikely you will be able to use these. Newer conduit will be ok, as there is more likely to be an inspection box at each point.
Wall lights would solve the ceiling problem, as all the wires can run under your floor, assuming it is floorboards. Then you have the problem of chasing channels into the wall. If you do this, use oval conduit, for the NEXT rewire.
There are a lot of nice wall lights available now, including bathrooms.
A good electrician should be able to rewire the ceiling lights without too much damage. As mentioned, he will fish along the joists as much as possible, and will notch the ceiling under the joists where he can't fish.
He will also take advantage of any cupboards etc to hide cable in.
Adding a suspended ceiling would of course make work easier from the electrical point of view, and may allow you to fit recessed downligters.
If you did go to the expense of lowering the ceilings take the opportunity of installing any other wiring you need or may need in the future.
It may prove a quicker and neater job if you left the job to the electrician, assuming he is good and is experienced he should be able to install wiring in the ceiling with minimal disruption.
Here's the worst one I've ever had to do.
This was a ground floor flat, with no access to the flat above.
It took time, patience, skill and the right tools, but it is quite possible to do.
This was a ground floor flat, with no access to the flat above.
It took time, patience, skill and the right tools, but it is quite possible to do.
Love that crazy swirly trunking - must have taken hours to get all those bends so symmetrical.
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