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what primer to use on stained wood?


 
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Gille

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:46 pm Reply with quote

I have spindles and a hand rail that have been stained but not varnished. I am not happy with the finish and am deciding wether to paint. Do I need to use a special primer to cover stained wood or will general purpose primer and knotting seal do the job. This was bare wood treated with one coat of Coloron wood stain.
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Zampa

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:44 pm Reply with quote

Now this could be tricky...if the wood dye is oil based then it could bleed through subsequent paint coatings.

Try a test area first.

I would use a coat of dulux supergrip primer or MDF primer then paint as nornal...rubbing down between each coat
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Gille

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:58 am Reply with quote

Help......I decided to paint not varnish. I bought a good primer and have since sealed the knots, primed, undercoated and last night applied the first coat of gloss. I am happy with the look and the quality of finish having rubbed down betweens coats and spent a lot of time on the prep. However, I am still getting some areas on the spindles and bannister where the stain is bleeding through. The finish I have now is like glass with some staining appearing underneath the gloss finish. I was planning to give it a second coat of gloss at the weekend and hope that this will kill the stain. Do you think that will do the job or is there anything else I can do before applying the final coat of gloss?
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Zampa

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:13 pm Reply with quote

Yep....give the stains a coat of white knotting, you can get it from decorators merchants...its sometimes called 'styptic knotting'...failing that use the brown knotting or zinser 123
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Nestor_Kelebay

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:40 am Reply with quote

Gille:

The answer to your problem lay in simply understanding what's causing that "bleed through".

Whenever anything "bleeds through" a paint or primer, what's actually happening is that it's dissolving in the paint or primer and diffusing through the paint or primer to discolor the surface.

In general, stuff that's soluble in water won't be soluble in mineral spirits, so if a stain bleeds through a water based primer, chances are it won't bleed through an oil based primer and vice versa. So, you can generally block stains simply by knowing that.

However, lots of primers that call themselves "stain blockers" will work by reducing the time the chemical in the stain has to dissolve in the paint or primer. Where I live, there's a company that makes an alkyd "stain blocking" primer that uses a solution of naptha and mineral spirits as the solvent instead of just mineral spirits. Since naptha evaporates about 5 times as fast as mineral spirits, this primer thickens up very quickly after being applied, and it's that fast set up that prevents the staining chemical from diffusing through the primer to the surface (where it causes a discoloration called "bleeding through").

If push comes to shove, you can always paint over any problem areas with shellac. Shellac is the traditional stain blocker because it's impermeable and only soluble in alcohol. So, even if the chemical that's causing the staining is soluble in alcohol, the shellac it's encapsulated in won't dissolve when you put any water or oil based paint or primer over that shellac, so no staining of that top coat.

If I were you, I'd just allow extra time between coats of oil based primer to ensure that each coat is fully dry before applying the next coat.

PS: If the staining on new wood is brownish in color, it's probably tannin, which is water soluble. Woods high in tannin will cause problems with latex primers much moreso than with oil based primers because of that solubility of tannin in water. If this staining is on wood that has previously been stained a brown color, then it's probably the dye of the stain re-dissolving in the primer (as was previously suggested by someone).
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Gille

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:54 pm Reply with quote

hi, thanks for the detailed reply. The primer I used was water based, Zinsser Bulls Eye 123 (primer, sealer, stain killer). The wood was pine that I stained with I think an oil based wood dye and I think it's that what is bleeding through. The Zinsser product says you can apply onto any surface without sanding and is ready to recoat in 1 hour. I was thinking of covering the stained areas first and then give it a second coat of gloss or I may try and get hold of some shellac and then gloss. To anyone else reading has anyone used Zinsser and is it a good idea to cover straight over a gloss fiish?
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confidentincompetent

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:11 am Reply with quote

Gille wrote:
hi, thanks for the detailed reply. The primer I used was water based, Zinsser Bulls Eye 123 (primer, sealer, stain killer). The wood was pine that I stained with I think an oil based wood dye and I think it's that what is bleeding through. The Zinsser product says you can apply onto any surface without sanding and is ready to recoat in 1 hour. I was thinking of covering the stained areas first and then give it a second coat of gloss or I may try and get hold of some shellac and then gloss. To anyone else reading has anyone used Zinsser and is it a good idea to cover straight over a gloss fiish?


Presume your using solvent gloss gill? This should have stopped the bleed. icon_confused.gif I use zinsser occasionly, it works the same way as nester explained but sometimes it will need two coats to fully trap tannin. Though there are other products in the range that may be better like the shellac based sealer here.

http://zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=10

If your gloss is new it's ok to put another coat of gloss on without abrading apart from a bit of de nibbing but dont break the gloss film.
Personally I would try perhaps another coat of gloss on one of the spindles, if not then shellac as suggested.
good luck [/url]
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Zampa

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:55 am Reply with quote

Interesting that that tannin has been flagged up here...I do know of a few cases where people have used tea as a wood dye...(obviously without the sugar and milk!!)

Worst one was someone who used boot polish to stain a pine door!!... icon_rolleyes.gif (because thats what her mum used to do...and her grandmother before)...I was asked to varnish it (unaware of the boot polish...not really a question you would ask is it)

Cue phone call three weeks ater to tell me the varnish hadnt dried (wonder why eh????)

When i found out what they had done I had the door dipped...
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Nestor_Kelebay

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:46 am Reply with quote

Gille:

I use Zinsser's Bullseye 123 for most of my priming needs, but if I were you, I wouldn't use it for spindles on a bannister (which is what I presume you're planning to do).

You see, being a PVA primer, the Zinsser's is going to dry to a soft film. However, this is a bannister on a stair case, and if it were me, I'd probably be wanting to use an oil (alkyd) paint on them. (Simply cuz bannisters on a stair case are more likely to be bumped and bruised moving stuff up the stairs and down the stairs than a ceiling or wall would, and oil based paints provide for a harder film which will stand up better to both the bumping and bruising and the cleaning up of scuffs, etc.)

So, you'd end up with a soft latex primer with a hard oil based paint on top, and it's never a good idea to put a hard coating over a softer one cuz that's a situation that's likely to see the hard top coating getting chipped up easily as the one underneath it breaks and fails in daily use.

If it were me, I would probably be most inclined to use an ordinary INTERIOR oil based primer over the stained wood you have, and just allow that coat of primer to dry for an extra day or two before topcoating with an oil based paint. You MAY get some bleeding of the old stain into your primer, but you also may be surprised at how little of that occurs. There is a product called KILZ sealer which is an alkyd primer that uses a lot of naptha instead of mineral spirits as it's solvent that would minimize the bleed through of stains because it dries so fast (naptha evaporates about 5 times as fast as mineral spirits), and it would be OK to use if you ROLLED it on, but it's a bear cat to paint on with a brush. It dries so fast that you're continuously fighting trying to smooth out brush strokes, and the only effective way of doing that is to thin the primer with mineral spirits to increase it's drying time, but that effectively changes the product back into an ordinary interior alkyd primer, so you're left wondering if it wouldn't be better just to use an interior alkyd primer and rely on allowing longer drying time for better encapsulation to deal with any bleed through.

If you can, see if you can still get a true BOILED LINSEED OIL based primer in your area. Nowadays, alkyds paints are the norm, and an alkyd resin is nothing more than a "clump" of drying oil molecules (or parts thereof) and the considerably larger size of alkyd resins greatly reduces their ability to penetrate deeply into the wood to obtain the excellent adhesion to the wood that the true drying oil primers and paints were able to achieve. Basically, alkyd resins penetrate into wood better than latex resins (which don't penetrate at all), but for really good penetration and adhesion to the wood, you can't beat a true drying oil based product.

Also, whenever using any oil based products, it's best to ensure you apply each coat within 24 hours of the previous coat to get good crosslinking between coats. That, in turn, helps ensure excellent adhesion of each coat to the previous one. If you need to sand out any bumps or lumps in the paint, then you need not observe that 24 hour timing as the roughening of the substrate will ensure good coat-to-coat bonding.

But, your general gameplan wasn't too bad. If you had a glossy surface, using Bullseye 123 to stick to it, and then top coat over that Bullseye 123 makes sense at first blush. If you were planning to use a latex paint over top of the Bullseye, it would still be an OK plan. But, in my view, you'd get a more durable paint job and better performance if you went with an oil based primer and paint rather than latex on your bannisters.

Certainly, on any working surfaces, such as shelves, window sills, floors, desk tops, or anything where things get slid over a painted surface, stick with the harder drying oil based products for best results.
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Gille

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:51 pm Reply with quote

I am soon to return to my staircase which from the thread you can see I have had a tricky problem to sort. The hall, stairs and landing is now
complete and I am pleased with the look and finish, however I need to sort the problem with wood stain bleeding through my staircase paintwork. From the advice already received and given that it has been a few months since the last coat of gloss was applied I want to check if you think my approach to take this forward is correct.
I plan to give the staircase/spindles a light sand to remove the gloss
sheen. Then apply a clear shellac finish to the stained areas. I will
follow this up with a (hopefully) final coat of gloss. Does this seem ok
and can I ask how well gloss sticks to the smooth shellac finish.
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Third_Eye

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:13 pm Reply with quote

If i am reading this thread correctly then the only poaint that stops oil based wood dye from bleeding through is Aluminium sealer spirit based primers and sealers are used to prevent materials leaking into subsequent coverings. They contain fine scales of aluminium and provide a barrier to seal the surface. They are very fast drying - taking approximately 15 minutes to dry. A second coat can be applied after 1 hour.
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