10a MCB lighting circuit and 2a sockets

[OwainDIYer]

Also, there must be an outlet fitted on every wall 2ft or more in length. ... In the UK, there seems to be no regulations about designing installations based on how people use things or to reduce likelihood of overload, trailing wires, extension cords e.t.c. (the things that actually cause fire and electrocution).

The UK used to prefer its regulations to give the requirements for safety and leave it up to the designer to achieve those requirements, rather than overly prescribing to the inch where socket-outlets should be.

There is a requirement for installations to be adequate and suitable for their purpose.

At least our plugs don't fall out of the sockets

 

[tew1]

Someone who realised that it was necessary to have opening and closing tags.

How would you have done it?

click 'quote' and start typing.

 

[tew1]

At least our plugs don't fall out of the sockets

US plugs were specifically designed with a front entry cord, so that the plug is easily pulled out if you trip on the cord, instead of pulling over the lamp/laptop/whatever. Also means you can mount outlets at any height without cords being crushed. Also, you don't need to go to hospital if you tread on a plug barefoot. On switches, 'down'=off also, meaning if something were to fall and brush a switch, it wouldn't be turning it on. Basic good consideration. The only danger with US plugs is no half sleeving on the pins. Australia, Japan and other countries with similar plugs have implemented this though.
Anyway, hugely digress.

 

[tew1]

The UK used to prefer its regulations to give the requirements for safety and leave it up to the designer to achieve those requirements, rather than overly prescribing to the inch where socket-outlets should be.

There is a requirement for installations to be adequate and suitable for their purpose.

The UK needs to be far more prescriptive about physical installations and less so about strange far-fetched scenarios about earth impedance or hitting cables in walls with nails. In the US, all appliances have a standard cord length of 6ft, meaning you can design where people will plug things in. In bathrooms, GFI outlets are placed next to the mirror or countertop for straightening tongs/hair dryers e.t.c. so you can't plug them in, say just outside the bathroom in a standard non-GFI/RCD socket and risk using an appliance with wet hair/hands or leaving hot appliances on beds or carpets (hairdryers on beds is a HUGE cause of fire in the UK). Same outdoors. GFI sockets must be installed around the outside of the house so you don't plug garden appliances/christmas lights e.t.c. into extension cords in standard non-RCD sockets inside. If there was a UK regulation that stated DEDICATED sockets must be provided for each heavy current appliance e.g. dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer, maybe with dedicated non-standard sockets just for heavy current appliances as in the US, common overloading would be all but eliminated in these circumstances. The #1 cause of electrical housefires in the UK are tumble dryers in inappropriate places plugged into 4-way extension leads. Another main source of electrical house fires in the UK are recessed halogen downlights covered with insulation/debris. Regulations contradict eachother, and very few UK manufacturers make insulation listed downlights. People, even qualified electricians don't seem to understand the difference between 'fire rated' and 'insulation coverable' downlights. In the US, where insulation is present, you MUST use insulated, airtight fittings (which are basically a large insulated galvanized/aluminium heatsink box housing the bulb). It baffles me.

 

[tew1]

[/quote]

The UK needs to be far more prescriptive about physical installations and less so about strange far-fetched scenarios about earth impedance or hitting cables in walls with nails.[/quote]

Having said that, US building codes dictate that any timber supports where cables pass through a drilled hole must have a galvanized plate over top to prevent plasterboard screws going through cables, so that's why. Electrical and plumbing must be set distances apart also (and not cross directly). I dread to think how many T&E cables have a drywall screw penetrating the live core, or how many T&E cables are rubbing over 80 degrees central heating pipes in this country.
OK. Rant over.

 

[winston1]

In theory if we use a 2A plug and socket then we need to fuse to 2A and the same with a 5A plug and socket we are limited to 5A fuse or MCB.

?

No so. 3 5A sockets are allowed on a 15A fuse. A 2A socket is deemed to supply 1/2 A and 10 are allowed on a 5A fuse.

Both 5A and 2A plugs are available with fuses if you are worried. But just look at the construction of a 2A plug, it can surely carry much more. Remember these size connectors were designed in the days of DC supplies, you can pull them out on full load using DC with no problems.

 

[RF Lighting]

The UK used to prefer its regulations to give the requirements for safety and leave it up to the designer to achieve those requirements, rather than overly prescribing to the inch where socket-outlets should be.

There is a requirement for installations to be adequate and suitable for their purpose.

The UK needs to be far more prescriptive about physical installations and less so about strange far-fetched scenarios about earth impedance or hitting cables in walls with nails. In the US, all appliances have a standard cord length of 6ft, meaning you can design where people will plug things in. In bathrooms, GFI outlets are placed next to the mirror or countertop for straightening tongs/hair dryers e.t.c. so you can't plug them in, say just outside the bathroom in a standard non-GFI/RCD socket and risk using an appliance with wet hair/hands or leaving hot appliances on beds or carpets (hairdryers on beds is a HUGE cause of fire in the UK). Same outdoors. GFI sockets must be installed around the outside of the house so you don't plug garden appliances/christmas lights e.t.c. into extension cords in standard non-RCD sockets inside. If there was a UK regulation that stated DEDICATED sockets must be provided for each heavy current appliance e.g. dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer, maybe with dedicated non-standard sockets just for heavy current appliances as in the US, common overloading would be all but eliminated in these circumstances.

All* UK domestic sockets must be RCD protected.

It is not possible to overload a UK socket due to the fused plug arrangement.

The #1 cause of electrical housefires in the UK are tumble dryers in inappropriate places plugged into 4-way extension leads. Another main source of electrical house fires in the UK are recessed halogen downlights covered with insulation/debris. Regulations contradict eachother, and very few UK manufacturers make insulation listed downlights. People, even qualified electricians don't seem to understand the difference between 'fire rated' and 'insulation coverable' downlights. In the US, where insulation is present, you MUST use insulated, airtight fittings (which are basically a large insulated galvanized/aluminium heatsink box housing the bulb). It baffles me.

Got any facts to back up that load of old tosh?

 

[RF Lighting]

The UK used to prefer its regulations to give the requirements for safety and leave it up to the designer to achieve those requirements, rather than overly prescribing to the inch where socket-outlets should be.

There is a requirement for installations to be adequate and suitable for their purpose.

The UK needs to be far more prescriptive about physical installations and less so about strange far-fetched scenarios about earth impedance or hitting cables in walls with nails. In the US, all appliances have a standard cord length of 6ft, meaning you can design where people will plug things in. In bathrooms, GFI outlets are placed next to the mirror or countertop for straightening tongs/hair dryers e.t.c. so you can't plug them in, say just outside the bathroom in a standard non-GFI/RCD socket and risk using an appliance with wet hair/hands or leaving hot appliances on beds or carpets (hairdryers on beds is a HUGE cause of fire in the UK). Same outdoors. GFI sockets must be installed around the outside of the house so you don't plug garden appliances/christmas lights e.t.c. into extension cords in standard non-RCD sockets inside. If there was a UK regulation that stated DEDICATED sockets must be provided for each heavy current appliance e.g. dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer, maybe with dedicated non-standard sockets just for heavy current appliances as in the US, common overloading would be all but eliminated in these circumstances.

All* UK domestic sockets must be RCD protected.

It is not possible to overload a UK socket due to the fused plug arrangement.

The #1 cause of electrical housefires in the UK are tumble dryers in inappropriate places plugged into 4-way extension leads. Another main source of electrical house fires in the UK are recessed halogen downlights covered with insulation/debris. Regulations contradict eachother, and very few UK manufacturers make insulation listed downlights.
Got any facts to back up that load of old tosh?

People, even qualified electricians don't seem to understand the difference between 'fire rated' and 'insulation coverable' downlights. In the US, where insulation is present, you MUST use insulated, airtight fittings (which are basically a large insulated galvanized/aluminium heatsink box housing the bulb). It baffles me.

It's a fault of the p... poor training of 'electricians' these days, rather than the regs which result in these none compliant installations.

Are you saying that no one in the US ever carries out none compliant work just because regs requre a box round a downlighter? (just like ours do btw)

 

[winston1]

Although we think of USA as being standard 110v system that's not the case and factories have quite a mixture of voltages there is no standard system.

Domestic voltage in the US is 120v not 110V. It is sometimes quoted as 117v to take account of volt drop.

 

[winston1]

The only danger with US plugs is no half sleeving on the pins. Australia, Japan and other countries with similar plugs have implemented this though.

In Australia they have had problems with the blades breaking as the metal is so thin once sleeving is on it. Broken blades left in sockets, safe or not.

China which uses similar plugs do not have sleeved blades.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Someone who realised that it was necessary to have opening and closing tags.

How would you have done it?

click 'quote' and start typing.

And that would work for nested quotes, how, exactly?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In the US, all appliances have a standard cord length of 6ft,

Don't think I'd want 6' of flex on my toaster, kettle etc.

(hairdryers on beds is a HUGE cause of fire in the UK).

Where's the data which shows that?

And can you explain how having the facility use hairdryers in the bathroom prevents people from using them in the bedroom if they want to?

Same outdoors. GFI sockets must be installed around the outside of the house so you don't plug garden appliances/christmas lights e.t.c. into extension cords in standard non-RCD sockets inside.

We've required RCD protection for sockets likely to be used to supply things outdoors for decades. And now for all sockets, indoors and out.

If there was a UK regulation that stated DEDICATED sockets must be provided for each heavy current appliance e.g. dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer, maybe with dedicated non-standard sockets just for heavy current appliances as in the US, common overloading would be all but eliminated in these circumstances.

The current requirements for those sorts of appliances are a lot lower here than in the US because the voltage here is twice what is is there.

The #1 cause of electrical housefires in the UK are tumble dryers in inappropriate places plugged into 4-way extension leads. Another main source of electrical house fires in the UK are recessed halogen downlights covered with insulation/debris.

Where's the data which shows those things?

Regulations contradict eachother,

No they don't.

In the US, where insulation is present, you MUST use insulated, airtight fittings (which are basically a large insulated galvanized/aluminium heatsink box housing the bulb).

Here too you must use luminaires which are appropriate.

 

[winston1]

.[/quote]

The current requirements for those sorts of appliances are a lot lower here than in the US because the voltage here is twice what is is there.

[/quote]

Actually not true. Those appliances in the US are rated at 240V and are supplied off the 2 outers of a bi phase supply. That's why special dedicated sockets are used.

Sadly you can't get 240V kettles in the US so it takes ages to make a brew.

 

[tew1]

All* UK domestic sockets must be RCD protected.

It is not possible to overload a UK socket due to the fused plug arrangement.

Most British houses were wired before RCD's were introduced. At that time, RCD (CGFI) outlets had also not become mainstream. In the US, CGFI's were code in 1968 in wet areas (pools, bathrooms e.t.c.) with full modern code introduced in 1980. Therefore, many appliances are plugged into non RCD type sockets in this country, especially dangerous for garden appliances and bathroom appliances like hairdyers, straighteners e.t.c. which would be safer plugged into a RCD socket in a bathroom than in a non-RCD socket somewhere else/near the bathroom.
It IS possible to overload a twin 13a socket. 2x13a loads in one TWIN socket=26 amps. Brick-type two or 3-way adaptors allow even more 13a plugs in one socket without an integral fuse, hence the scorching commonly found on dishwasher/tumble dryer twin sockets.
Tumble dryers ARE the main cause of house fires in the UK. Google "tumble dryer fires UK". I lose count of the number of new-build homes and rental properties I've stayed in that have unbelievable laundry arrangements with multiple appliances plugged into 4-way adaptors in "utility rooms". Another main cause is hair straighteners placed on beds and left on by accident because we don't have sockets in bathrooms here, if we did, the hot appliance would be placed on a bathroom countertop and cause no danger. Often, hairdryers have a thermal cutout and turn themselves off if you've been using them too long. People often throw them on the bed because they've stopped working, leave, then later on, the cutout resets and they come back on and set fire to the bed.
In the US, there is a HUGE range of insulation-suitable downlight fittings widely available, even to the DIYer (as most hardware stores stock them). In the UK, you are extremely limited and have to order them. Buildings regulations are also very vague and contradicting about insulation protection to downlights. Part L requires continual insulation across the roof space, whilst electrical regs require sufficient airspace around downlights, with no proprietary products actually achieving both requirements, short of DIY 'boxes' to enclose the light. 'Fire rated' lights simply mean they prevent the spread of fire between floors, they do not mean that can't cause a fire if in contact with insulation or timber.

 

[tew1]

Actually not true. Those appliances in the US are rated at 240V and are supplied off the 2 outers of a bi phase supply. That's why special dedicated sockets are used.

yes I know that. Electric dryers typically have 2 110v phases, equaling 240v, neutral and ground (4 prongs), but are rated at 30amps because appliances tend to be much larger in the US. The point is, gas dryers have standard 3-prong 110v plugs, but the motor carries a high current, so code does not permit two heavy-current appliances in the same dual-outlet. In the US, some air conditioners and other high-current appliances have plugs with a rotated T-shaped live prong for 20a receptacles only, meaning you can't plug it into a standard receptacle on a 15a circuit or extension cord, but you can plug lower current appliances with the non-rotated prong into outlets capable of higher current. What I'm saying is, if the UK had a dedicated type of socket for high-current appliances, the general public would only be able to plug them into dedicated lines in appropriate places in the house, remedying this awful situation we have where people are installing tumble dryers in inappropriate places like sheds, home offices, stacked on shelves in cupboards e.t.c. and plugging them into cheap extension leads which simply do not cope with a full 13amp load.