25mm cable ???

[JohnW2]

"ELV" vs "LV": Of huge importance given the use of the correct definitions in a law which applies to everybody doing electrical work in dwellings in England or Wales.

IMO, it's not only of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer but, if the 'correct' terminology (for items intended to run on 230V) were used in relation to consumer goods (which, thankfully, it isn't), it would be frankly dangerous.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

It includes rewiring of lighting circuits, reasonable provision should be made to obtain the benefits of efficient lighting. Section 1 43

We must be looking at different versions. Section 1.43 in mine is about hot water storage vessels! ... I assume what you are looking at is equivalent to the 1.54 in my version, which I mention below.

The problem with the version I'm looking at and maybe also yours) is that everything explicit is says about lighting occurs before the start of Section 2 ("Work on Existing Dwellings") and the only reference to lighting in Section 2 is, as I said, in relation to works involving 'change of use' of the premises - the implication seemingly being that (in the absence of 'change of use') Section 1 only applies to new builds.

So, given that the equivalent in my version (1.54) of what you quote above, which reads "1.54 Reasonable provision should be made for dwelling occupiers to obtain the benefits of efficient lighting....." is in Section 1, my interpretation was that it only applies to new builds or 'change of use' situations. Am I interpreting incorrectly?

Kind Regards, John

As part L direct us to use the domestic building service compliance guide, with regards to lighting efficiency, I think Table 40 within that document should be looked at. Note new and replacement systems

 

[JohnW2]

As part L direct us to use the domestic building service compliance guide, with regards to lighting efficiency, I think Table 40 within that document should be looked at. Note new and replacement systems

I'm getting very confused about what you are looking at and what I am looking at - and I haven't even heard of the 'domestic building service compliance guide'. I need to do some looking around. watch this space!

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I'm getting very confused about what you are looking at and what I am looking at - and I haven't even heard of the 'domestic building service compliance guide'. I need to do some looking around. watch this space!

If you have never heard of the "Domestic Building Service Compliance Service Guide" and want to discuss energy efficiency in the domestic sector, I suggest you check it out.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf
Table 40 is well into the document at page 122.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What is the date of the document you're quoting from?

The Building Regulations 2010

 

[ban-all-sheds]

IMO, it's not only of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer

¿Que?



From the Building Regulations:

From Approved Document P:

So let me get this clear. You think it is of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer for them to know that the law applies to them when they do things to or with their house wiring?


The people who wrote those documents don't agree, as both of them contain definitions of extra-low and low voltage.

Can you explain why you think they are wrong?

 

[SparrowHawk99]

So you are going to be running the cables and allow a spark to do the actual connections?

Running the cables I would class as needing to know how to design. There is more than just running the cables. It needs to be designed first then cables ran to the design.

Are you going to be notifying building control?

Do you know about building legislations (Part L, Part P) that apply and safe zones?

Are you planning to get said spark to do the design first tell you where to run the cables and then do the donkey work your self? Or just run the cables and then get the spark in?

You do not have the competence to do this work. There is more than just running cables. What about ring finals and radials? Do you know where you would use one or the other? Do you know about earthing requirements?

I have worked out the cost of parts you require with my trade discount and I have selected MK logic for accessories, Doncaster cable, Hager all RCBO, including all parts I would consider requiring (screws wall plugs capping), without the lighting to around £425 including VAT. This gives a really good design.

I cannot remember is Part L applies to new builds or rewires. If this is the case for a rewire then 30% of the fixed lighting fittings must be low energy fittings. This is to comply with building legislation that you have to comply with.

This is why I did not select cost of lighting into my price.

Hi Adam, to answer those questions.

No I won’t be making connections, just running cable.

I would notify building control if they offered a consultation service that I already pay for as part of council tax. The work will be inspected and signed of by a qualified electrician

I know about part l, part p, look at previous posts. I’m aware of safe zones in relation to bathrooms. I don’t intend to have any sockets in the bathroom, the shaver point will be nearest the sink, well away from the shower. The extractor fan will have its fused spur outside of the bathroom, or I may decide to use a wall mounted switch well away from zones 1,2.

GROUND FLOOR
Electric cooker on 6mm cable running to C/U,

Boiler on same cable

All sockets to kitchen to run on its own ring circuit to C/U

Extractor fan for cooker to run off spur on kitchen ring circuit

Lounge ring circuit + double socket to hall to run on its own ring circuit to C/U

All lighting points on ground including hallway light to run on same circuit to C/U – I don’t know whether it is loop-in or junction box, this is where my sparky will be able to advice, perhaps you or someone can here ?

1 Pendant light to hall used with two way switch operable from top and bottom of stairs - don't know how this is done, dependent on advice from ex-sparky

FIRST FLOOR

All lighting on first floor to run on same circuit to C/U

All sockets to bedroom 1 and 2 and double socket to hall to run on same ring circuit

Extractor for bathroom to run off spur on bedroom ring circuits – fused switch to be outside bathroom or wall mounted outside of zones 1,2 relating to shower. Shaver point to run off bedroom ring circuit, to be placed well outside zones 1,2

PLASTIC PLUMBING PIPE USED THROUGHOUT. EXPOTENTIAL BONDING USED OUTSIDE ON INCOMMING COPPER WATER SUPPLY AND ON GAS PIPE OUTSIDE. WILL DEAL WITH THIS AS ADVISED BY QUALIFIED SPARK WHO MAY DO BONDING TO REGULATIONS WHERE NECESSARY – i.e. boiler ???

Not rocket science... If there are mistakes please correct where necessary.

 

[SparrowHawk99]

So why the hell are they used in peoples houses if this is a problem ? Answer me that

It's the latest fad. In six years time this forum will be full of people asking how to fill all those holes in the ceiling.

BAS was trotting out that line when I joined this forum.

I'm fitting just as many downlighters for customers as I was when I started out in this trade. The only thing that's changed is we fit flush white LED downlights these days instead of brass eyeball 50W ELV downlights


OP you put in as many downlights as you want. There are NO building regulations preventing you from doing it. A properly installed downlighter installation does a brilliant job of evenly lighting a room.

If you use a 5W LED in each fitting it keeps the eco warriors happy too.

I normally install "loxa" branded 5W dimmerable warm white GU10 LED lamps. We've used them on loads of different dimmers, and never had any compatibility issues. Think the first ones we did were about 4 / 5 years ago, and they're still working quite happily.

Thanks so much chap that's really good advice. I've questioned the use of spots now and considered pendants, the thread has put me off them a lot. It would save me a lot on materials but my heart was always set on spots.

The ones you've quoted look lovely and around £13. However I'm having 6+5+4+4 excluding bathroom which need to be low voltage (would these bulbs be acceptable in the bathroom ?) So in total say 23 bulbs @£13, that's £300 on bulbs alone !

Perhaps I would be better of with a pendant to lounge and kitchen, and spots to bedrooms?

What would you do if you were me ?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would notify building control if they offered a consultation service that I already pay for as part of council tax.

Yes, the law does not apply if no consultation service.

 

[JohnW2]

IMO, it's not only of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer

¿Que? ... From the Building Regulations: ... From Approved Document P: ... So let me get this clear. You think it is of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer for them to know that the law applies to them when they do things to or with their house wiring?

Maybe I should have written "... no practical importance ...". Do you really think that anyone would believe that the part of the Building Regs concerned with 'Electrical Safety' did not apply to 'mains voltage' wiring within their houses? If anyone read the bits of Part P and Approved Doc P which you cite (which I imagine very few do) and got confused by the terminology, I presume that they would either look at the definitions or ask questions.

The people who wrote those documents don't agree, as both of them contain definitions of extra-low and low voltage. Can you explain why you think they are wrong?

'Wrong' is not the word. Legislation obviously should be as precise as possible. However, I would have hoped that they would have contemplated the possibility of the legislation (and AD) being read by non-electricians, and would at least have annotated the references to LV and ELV to ensure thatreaders understood their meaning within the legislation.

Whatever, as I've said, I would be far more concerned if we started seeing consumer items designed for 230V being labelled 'Low Voltage' - which (given the widespread 'ignorance' of the general public of which you disapprove) would, IMO, be extremely dangerous.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

excluding bathroom which need to be low voltage

Presuming you mean 12V - no they don't.


Your plan above may seem quite reasonable to you but it only shows that you do not know enough to be doing this.

You won't see it but you need someone stood behind you telling you, at every step, what to do or should be doing.

 

[SparrowHawk99]

IMO, it's not only of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer

¿Que?



From the Building Regulations:

From Approved Document P:

So let me get this clear. You think it is of absolutely no importance to a member of the public or DIYer for them to know that the law applies to them when they do things to or with their house wiring?


The people who wrote those documents don't agree, as both of them contain definitions of extra-low and low voltage.

Can you explain why you think they are wrong?

Thanks very much chap for that pertinent and sterling advice. Why do I bother getting out of bed in the morning eh? For your information I’m self taught in almost every aspect of my education, I didn’t get the benefit of a wonderful state funded education like you did when you were young. I’ve have to scrimp and scrape all my knowledge from talking to people, researching and reading. There are gaps in my knowledge that I wish to fill and I will persevere as I always have. Coming up against people like you, well it’s ten a penny. I’ve always been told I can’t do things, I’m incapable and it just makes me more determined. To date I have managed to do a full strip out of my house, with the aid of this forum and my own research and hard work and will complete it to a high standard. I apologise for not kneeling to you and giving you the respect you think you deserve. The problem is I don’t think you do deserve respect, you haven’t provided any information that has helped me or anyone else. All you've said is ''get someone to do it''. You’re foaming at the mouth over petty definitions and correct terminology like you’re some kind of construction wizard. As someone else has said it’s a DIY forum, that’s why people come here. I don’t consider myself knowledgeable to give advice, but if I was I would give it. I wouldn’t troll someone’s thread because I didn’t like their tone, besmirch and belittle everything they are trying to do, despite them saying they clearly need help and lack knowledge. You feel this is appropriate though, and you want respect in return? No. You are a small man in a small world. You’ve yet to contribute anything of any value so don’t point at me and tell me I’m the one that’s wrong. I hold the regulations in the highest regard and I want to do the job properly, its lack of understanding that is stopping this, not willingness. I will get there with or without the help of people like you

 

[SparrowHawk99]

I would notify building control if they offered a consultation service that I already pay for as part of council tax.

Yes, the law does not apply if no consultation service.

That is why there is self certification is it not?

The live connections are being checked by a competent, registered spark how many times do I have to ****ing repeat this

 

[JohnW2]

Thanked: 1000 times.

Congrats on your 1,000 well-deserved 'Thanks' - but watch your back

Kind Regards, John

 

[SparrowHawk99]

excluding bathroom which need to be low voltage

Presuming you mean 12V - no they don't.


Your plan above may seem quite reasonable to you but it only shows that you do not know enough to be doing this.

You won't see it but you need someone stood behind you telling you, at every step, what to do or should be doing.

I will have the help of my friend an ex-spark, if there are errors make corrections to it, what is wrong with you ? Point out the errors, help or don't bother posting