HETAS log burner smoking in bedroom

[Doggit]

Which is a bit odd seeing the chimney would have had real flames and hot gasses going up it when it was first used.

 

[lostinthelight]

Some interesting reading?
http://www.stovefittersmanual.co.uk/articles/should-i-insulate-my-chimney-flue-liner/
litl

 

[bernardgreen]

Which is a bit odd seeing the chimney would have had real flames and hot gasses going up it when it was first used.

With an open fire the hot gases are diluted and cooled by air drawn from the room but which has not gone through the combustion area. With log burners there is no room air to dilute and cool the gases going into the flue as it all passes through the combustion area.

 

[Corgigrouch GTi]

That is not what HETAS told me. HETAS said it is to prevent ( reduce the risk of ) the brickwork of the chimney becoming hot enough to ignite flammable material in contact with the brick work.

I think that he was teasing you.

 

[Steelmasons]

With an open fire the hot gases are diluted and cooled by air drawn from the room but which has not gone through the combustion area. With log burners there is no room air to dilute and cool the gases going into the flue as it all passes through the combustion area.

Are you suggesting that combustion can take place when void of O2?

 

[bernardgreen]

I think that he was teasing you.

Are you 100% sure you are right in that opinion and your thinking. Strange that the same reasons were given by the Insurance company, Building regulations and other well informed and experienced people. Remember that flue gases from gas boilers are cool enough to be safe in flues made out of plastic. Flues for log burners have to be able to carry gases at 400 to 600 °C. Totally different from gas boiler flues.

Are you suggesting that combustion can take place when void of O2?

I wrote ""gases going into the flue as it all passes through the combustion area.""

To make it clear for you. A log burner draws in air from the room. this passes through the combustion area where some if not all of the 20% volume of oxygen in that air is used in the combustion of the logs. The other 80% of the air ( mostly nitrogen ) pays no major part in the combustion (*) but is heated to a very high temperature before going up the flue. Nothing goes up the flue that has not been through the combustion area. No un-heated gases are drawn into the flue.


(*) some short lived oxides of nitrogen are formed which may affect the combustion process.

 

[ecswtrav]

Examined the flue in daylight today - there was no damage but the odd black mark I assumed was tar on the surface. Perhaps after all this it is smoke being emitted when the internal chimney brickwork is heated up and the soot is burned off. The higher the flue temperature, the more is heated up? Either way HETAS have asked me to fill out a complaints form (even though I cant really complain about the installers for effort). Hopefully someone will come and investigate the install and work with the installers on resolving the issue.

 

[Doggit]

Now I remember my mum putting a piece of paper in front of the fire to increase the draw, and telling me stories where if the chimney hadn't been swept, the soot could catch light, and burn (with a loud roaring noise) for about half an hour. She said that you could go outside, and see the flames coming out the top of the chimney. This shows that the chimney environment is hot enough to burn things in, yet survive, so it goes against the necessity for a flue liner.

I can understand you're dilemma ECS, but at the end of the day, you can't have an installation that the causes a problem in another chimney, so they need to be prepared to carry on till they resolve it, otherwise you do have a cause for complaint. I suspect the bedroom chimney needs sweeping, in addition to the liner being added to the flue. Some of the work will be chargeable (sweeping and materials, and others not. Point out to them that at the end of it, they'll know a lot more than most installers.

Have you explained the problem with Hetas to see if they can suggest any ideas beyond what we've come up with.

 

[ecswtrav]

I did contact HETAS Doggit and they advised things that have been done. I emailed the chap to explain after another visit things were not resolved and he said that I need to escalate things to an official HETAS complaint as he couldn't advise anymore and they wont attempt a visit unless a complaints form has been filled in. Shame really as it isn't a 'complaint' as such - more a request for another more experienced eye to have a look and work with the installers. I did mention to the installers that they'll know a hell of a lot more by the end of it if we ever resolve it. There solution was for me to brick up the chimney opening but I'd rather not cover up the problem. And when I fit a vent into the fireplace...as I assume you should....I'll be back with the same problem. Even if I put the vent outside on the stack I'd still be worrying about a potential chimney fire so we do need to get to the bottom of this somehow. I await HETAS advice now...I'll keep you posted on what they suggest. Cheers

 

[Doggit]

Suggesting you just block up the bedroom chimney, is pretty much a reason for a complaint. Your concerns over blocking the chimney are extremely valid believe me; okay, it would be short lived fire, but it's a negligent suggestion never the less.

On the assumption that the guys don't resolve the problem by sweeping the bedroom chimney, or by adding a flue liner, then escalating a complaint to Hetas is the only option left to you, and you've just got to be upfront with them, and tell them you'll back them up over it.

 

[lostinthelight]

ecstwtrav, if you can see up the bedroom chimney then it may be possible to take a temperature reading of the dividing wall with an IR thermometer? Speaking of thermometers, do you have one on your fluepipe near the stove to make sure your not over firing it?
litl

 

[ecswtrav]

Yes litl I have a thermometer on the flue pipe and things are operating at the correct temperature or sweet spot on the gauge. The IR thermometer sounds useful I'll ask around see if I can get hold of one as that would illustrate the issue. Doggit I've escalated the complaint already to hetas as the original hetas contact couldn't advise anymore. I just felt I needed some help perhaps in making sure the chaps return knowing that their conclusion is to brick it up. I've made it clear it's not a complaint as such though to not sour things

 

[Sammy777]

Is the flue heating something up on the outside of the flue. Where perhaps, vermiculite isn't insulating it properly?

 

[Corgigrouch GTi]

I did contact HETAS Doggit and they advised things that have been done. I emailed the chap to explain after another visit things were not resolved and he said that I need to escalate things to an official HETAS complaint as he couldn't advise anymore and they wont attempt a visit unless a complaints form has been filled in. Shame really as it isn't a 'complaint' as such - more a request for another more experienced eye to have a look and work with the installers. I did mention to the installers that they'll know a hell of a lot more by the end of it if we ever resolve it. There solution was for me to brick up the chimney opening but I'd rather not cover up the problem. And when I fit a vent into the fireplace...as I assume you should....I'll be back with the same problem. Even if I put the vent outside on the stack I'd still be worrying about a potential chimney fire so we do need to get to the bottom of this somehow. I await HETAS advice now...I'll keep you posted on what they suggest. Cheers

Bricking up the fireplace opening is not acceptable as smoke is re entering the fabric of the building

 

[oilman]

How much combustion air ventilation is there for the stove?