ADVICE - Qualifications to TEST house wiring ?

[securespark]

That sequence is still being followed, the difference is that both the 15th and 16th had the original (red) and four reprints to use all 5 colours, the 17th also started with red but has only two reprints (green, yellow) making the next one blue even though that is a different edition entirely.

That's not logical, captain!

 

[JohnW2]

No, both EFLI and the bloke I spoke to in the NIC offices said pretty much the same thing.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood. I can but presume that it was a personal opinion (shared by others!) of that bloke, then - since, as has been said, it seems that NICEIC require their members to have an up-to-date copy of the OSG.

I suppose the OSG has a place for people who are unable to, or can't be bothered to, think for themselves - since, as far as I am aware, it's guidance is never such that to follow it would result in non-compliance with BS7671. However, as I've said, it quite often goes 'beyond' BS7671, and sometimes even invents things of its own (e.g. the strange one about lengths of spurs from a ring final!), in saying things which, to the unwary, sound like 'requirements', but are not actually required for compliance with BS7671.

I therefore wonder whether NICEIC members are required not only to have a current copy of the OSG, but also to 'comply' with its guidance?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

That's not logical, captain!

I can just about see a bit of logic in it.

Each new 'complete printing' of BS7671 (i.e. excluding things like Amd2 of 17th, which did not result in the printing of a whole new book) represents the set of regulations with which one must currently comply, so it doesn't really make any difference whether it is a 'new edition' or an Amendment of an existing edition.

By doing what they appear to be doing (per flameport - cycling through 5 colours, regardless of 'editions'), one can tell from the colour 'how out of date' a version is by its colour, but that would not necessarily be true if they always started a new edition with red. If they did that then, for example, in the very unlikely scenario of an edition having no Amendments, the next version of 'current regs' (the first version of the next edition) would also be red.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That's not logical, captain!

Yes it is.

From 1981 onwards when you look at your collection on the shelf you will always see this pattern repeating¹:

Sometimes a new edition will occur at the brown to red transition, sometimes it will not.

¹ Or at least, you will if you discard the first of the two brown 15ths and the first two of the three red 16ths

 

[securespark]

Surely it won't, unless every edition has the full range of colours?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Surely it won't, unless every edition has the full range of colours?

Sometimes a new edition will occur at the brown to red transition, sometimes it will not.

 

[JohnW2]

Surely it won't, unless every edition has the full range of colours?

Your "unless" and BAS's "sometimes" surely mean the same thing?

A new edition will only be red if the previous edition had four Amendments - whether one calls that 'sometimes', 'occasionally' or whatever.

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

OK, OK.
Sometimes, I'm a bit slow....don't mock the afflicted!

 

[EFLImpudence]

it seems that NICEIC require their members to have an up-to-date copy of the OSG.

I think they do. Elecsa did when I was with them

I suppose the OSG has a place for people who are unable to, or can't be bothered to, think for themselves

It does. Whether you think such people should do electrical work is a different matter - akin to the differing views of you and Bas on this forum.

I therefore wonder whether NICEIC members are required not only to have a current copy of the OSG, but also to 'comply' with its guidance?

It was necessary to have a copy for registration, but there was no instruction to open it.
Surely NICEIC cannot make such a requirement.

 

[JohnW2]

It does. Whether you think such people should do electrical work is a different matter - akin to the differing views of you and Bas on this forum.

I think one probably has to distinguish between DIYers and those who call themselves 'electricians' and undertake paid electrical work for customers. Even for the latter, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of 'guides' as a convenient concise portable source of information and as an 'aide memoir'. Even junior doctors carry around 'pocket guides' in the pockets of their white coats.

It was necessary to have a copy for registration, but there was no instruction to open it. Surely NICEIC cannot make such a requirement.

I suppose that such organisations can impose on their members whatever 'requirements' take their fancy. For example, most (probably all) of them require their members to work strictly to ('non-mandatory') BS7671, don't they?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I suppose that such organisations can impose on their members whatever 'requirements' take their fancy.

I would think that all requiremnents must be legally 'reasonable'.

For example, most (probably all) of them require their members to work strictly to ('non-mandatory') BS7671, don't they?

They do, so I would think requirements exceeding that, or even unrelated and unfounded, would be unreasonable.

 

[JohnW2]

I would think that all requiremnents must be legally 'reasonable'. .... They do, so I would think requirements exceeding that, or even unrelated and unfounded, would be unreasonable.

You would have to ask them, and maybe lawyers, about that. I'm not sure why it is necessarily any more 'reasonable' to insist on strict compliance with BS7671 (something which the law does not require) than it would be to require compliance with the OSG (or anything else they might specify).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Simply because the OSG has no accepted authority - unlike BS7671.

The same for any other so-called rule NICEIC chooses to make up.

 

[JohnW2]

Simply because the OSG has no accepted authority - unlike BS7671. The same for any other so-called rule NICEIC chooses to make up.

As I said, you'd have to ask lawyers about that. For a start, particularly given that no-one is forced to become a member of NICEIC (or any other scheme provider, come to that), I'm not sure that the law would be particularly interested in whether the rules for their members were 'reasonable' or not.

You seem to be suggesting that is is 'reasonable' for them to require strict compliance with BS7671, but not reasonable for them to require 'compliance' with the OSG. As I've said, I'm not sure that there's that much difference, given that the law requires compliance with neither.

You are saying that BS7671 has "accepted authority", but I'm not really sure what that actually means, particularly in law (since, as I've said, no law that I know of requires compliance with BS7671), and also given that the OSG is published by one of the co-authors of BS7671 (with an acknowledgement for 'the contribution of' the other co-author) - does that give it 'less authority'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Even for the latter, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of 'guides' as a convenient concise portable source of information and as an 'aide memoir'.

AIUI, the format of these was chosen to make them toolbox friendly:

They're better, and more robust, from that POV than the OSG