Do I need to make a planning application?

[oculushut]

Hi, I was wondering if I needed to make a full planning application or if everything that we would like to do falls under Permitted Development... does anybody know?

Our terraced property originally looked like this on the ground floor:

We believe that some time in the past, it was extended under permitted development (some houses on the street which have a similar layout still have the original profile). The property now looks like this (with a 3m extension at the end):

We are considering doing the following (another 3m extension plus some remodelling):

Couple of questions:

A) Can all of our changes be done without a full planning application? I.e. the new 3m extension as well as changing the old 3m extension as well (so long as the changes would all be within PD rules)?

B) We live in a terraced house so the new extension would go right up to the fence and we would therefore have a new bit of wall that we would have to share with the neighbours (new party wall agreement)... from what I have read, we need to make sure that the eaves height is no more than 3m and the total building must be no more than 4m high. Does this then mean that the following is OK to do without a full planning application?

So... with our neighbour on the right hand side of the image our eaves height would be exactly 3m at the boundary. With our neighbour on the left hand side of the image the eaves of the extension is lower than 3m, but the wall at the boundary is higher (matching the height of the rest of the outrigger).

The following image clarifies the old parts from the new parts (the old parts with the black roof):

Thanks for any help!

 

[JP_]

Under current rules you can extend out up to 6m under the PD neighbourhood consultation until May 2019, so if the total extended part is 6m you should be OK.
I'd put it through for PD / lawful development with the council anyway, as you will need neighbour consultation for anything more than 3m I think?

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/17/extensions

• These increased limits (between 3m and 6m and between 4m and 8m respectively) are subject to the prior notification of the proposal to the Local Planning Authority and the implementation of a neighbour consultation scheme. If objections are received, the proposal might not be allowed.
• Maximum height of a single-storey rear extension of four metres.
• Extensions of more than one storey must not extend beyond the rear wall of the original house* by more than three metres.
• Maximum eaves height of an extension within two metres of the boundary of three metres.
• Maximum eaves and ridge height of extension no higher than existing house.

Put in a PD application to be safe. If it falls outside the rules they will tell you!

 

[oculushut]

Hi Jonbey - thank you for response.

The larger extensions policy is not applicable here since this is a 3m extension (so it is not subject to the neighbour consultation scheme either) - there is an example shown in the PD documents which shows something similar.

Also I would rather not wait another 8 weeks for the council to get back to me since LDC is not mandatory. Would be especially good if there is somebody on here who understands the rules enought to say whether or not the design was within PD rules.

I am pretty certain about the 3m extension part.

The bits which I am less certain about are:

• Whether or not it is OK to have the wall at the boundary above 3m in height (the neighbour on the left)
• Whether or not I can amend an existing extension that was built on the basis of using PD rights without a planning application (if the changes I make now are also within current PD rules).

Thanks

 

[Notch7]

Hi Jonbey - thank you for response.

The larger extensions policy is not applicable here since this is a 3m extension (so it is not subject to the neighbour consultation scheme either) - there is an example shown in the PD documents which shows something similar.

Also I would rather not wait another 8 weeks for the council to get back to me since LDC is not mandatory. Would be especially good if there is somebody on here who understands the rules enought to say whether or not the design was within PD rules.

I am pretty certain about the 3m extension part.

The bits which I am less certain about are:

• Whether or not it is OK to have the wall at the boundary above 3m in height (the neighbour on the left)
• Whether or not I can amend an existing extension that was built on the basis of using PD rights without a planning application (if the changes I make now are also within current PD rules).

Thanks

I thought LDCs were decided in 42 days.....that might have changed though.

 

[tony1851]

What you propose is all PD, as long as the width of the new 3m extension is not more than 1/2 the overall width of the house (and you can include the thickness of both side boundary walls when measuring the width).
On plan it looks as though it would be near 1/2 the width, so check that just to be sure.

 

[oculushut]

I thought LDCs were decided in 42 days.....that might have changed though.

Yeah - 8 weeks for Lawful Development Certificates I believe... see clause 13 here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/11497/developmentcertificates.pdf

I have done a number of planning apps, a pre-app and the extra large PD apps and the local council never answered me faster than whatever the policy stated too. They always used up every day they had.

(For 42 days - you might be thinking about extra large PD time limits: https://ecab.planningportal.co.uk/uploads/1app/guidance/guidance_note-larger_home_extension.pdf)

 

[oculushut]

What you propose is all PD, as long as the width of the new 3m extension is not more than 1/2 the overall width of the house (and you can include the thickness of both side boundary walls when measuring the width).
On plan it looks as though it would be near 1/2 the width, so check that just to be sure.

The extension is exactly 1/2 of the width of the width of the original house at its widest point so it sounds like I should be OK on this point. Thank you for pointing out the rule - I had forgotten about that one.

 

[JP_]

I thought the 1/2 width was only if you were going to the side? You can do full width to back.
I assumed that the current thinner part at the back was a previous extension. If the house was build like that, then it's OK. But if that is an extension (I think made after 1950 or so) then it will count count towards to the PD.

... looking for link ...

* The term "original house" means the house as it was first built or as it stood on 1 July 1948 (if it was built before that date). Although you may not have built an extension to the house, a previous owner may have done so.
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/17/extensions

 

[tony1851]

I thought the 1/2 width was only if you were going to the side?

Unfortunately no - though that was probably the original intention of the legislation.
But councils interpret the wording of A1(j) to mean any original side-elevation wall (remember that the outrigger itself has a side wall facing across the rear of the house).
In practice, this means that any house with even a narrow original outrigger at the rear cannot have a full-width rear extension under PD. There was one thread recently where the house had just a small original coal bunker off the rear wall, and the OP found he could not extend the rear of the house under PD. Crazy - but that's how they interpret it, and it brings in the money for application fees.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

There was one thread recently where the house had just a small original coal bunker off the rear wall, and the OP found he could not extend the rear of the house under PD. Crazy - but that's how they interpret it, and it brings in the money for application fees.

Yes I recall I’m still waiting for you to answer my question in that thread tony, that is when does the outrigger become big enough that (in your opinion) it warrants becoming a side extension. 0.5m, 1m, 1.25m, 1.75m, 2m, 3m or some other random dimension you might choose. And what happens if your answer clashes with the local authority? Which it will. You won’t be able to answer ...

 

[tony1851]

Yes I recall I’m still waiting for you to answer my question in that thread tony, that is when does the outrigger become big enough that (in your opinion) it warrants becoming a side extension. 0.5m, 1m, 1.25m, 1.75m, 2m, 3m or some other random dimension you might choose. And what happens if your answer clashes with the local authority? Which it will. You won’t be able to answer ...

Your guess is as good as mine, FMT. There are several appeal cases on this matter which are at varience with each other.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Your guess is as good as mine, FMT. There are several appeal cases on this matter which are at varience with each other.

Precisely. Which is why a local authority has little choice but to impose the rules in gospel as they’re written. So suggesting they pick and choose when and when not to apply the rule and stating its ‘crazy’ is unfounded.

 

[tony1851]

Yes, but the 'rules in gospel as they're written' are only gospel until some planning inspector on appeal decides otherwise. This issue - like several others in the PD rules - needs to be finally determined by a High Court appeal, assuming some aggrieved householder has deep pockets...............!

 

[oculushut]

Different topic, but are there any websites that allow people to contribute their designs to an easily searchable repository of designs?

I am just thinking that there must be 1000s of terraced houses like ours where the owner is considering a 3m PD extension. We would definitely have found it useful to see a bunch of relevant examples... and the design has no value to us at all once we have built our property....

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

the design has no value to us at all once we have built our property....

I expect those who have paid for it might disagree with you there.