Not another "new boiler recommendation" thread...

[Captain Nemesis]

...At least, I hope not. I have looked at the threads here on "what boiler should I get", and will look at more, so I'll probably be able to get good info from those without asking the question again. Unless the new Gasboggler 2000 GTi is the bees knees and wasn't around the last time the question was asked.

I think I need a new boiler, and what I want to ask about is the Which? tables - whether anybody strongly disagrees with what they say.

I know everybody has their favourites, but it's comforting to see that there's not much to separate the top 3. Unless the table is rubbish.

Also interesting that I've seen quite a few votes here for Intergas, and yet

And this comment

veissman are good, but dont let the which magazine fool you they are not bullet proof.

And this from a locked thread, so I cant quote it

"I'd be wary of anything 'Which' recommend, there subscriber base isn't a snapshot of the average 'Joe Public'"

True, but that might be something to think about with "what's the tastiest cheddar you can buy", or "what percentage of people buy Miele dishwashers", is it important for boiler reliability? Does where you sit on the Sunday Sport & pork scratchings to Times Literary Supplement and hand-knitted felafal spectrum make a difference to reported reliability and what installers think?


Hence wondering how much trust I should have in what Which? says.

If anybody wants to say "I'm familiar with the Gasboggler 2000 GTi, what do Which say about it?" I'm happy to post detailed reviews.

If anyone does want to know my requirements they are here

Spoiler

3-bed 1 bath semi, 7 rads. Soon to be extended but no additional rooms created. Maybe 2 more rads.
Combi.
Would like a strong DHW performance to drive a mixer

shower, which I think means I should lean towards a boiler with a high modulation ratio so it can do the CH more efficiently?
Don't have any zones or motorised valves, just TRVs, and don't think I'm ever going to want to go down the road of hi-tech shinything controls.

And why I think I need a new one

Spoiler

Current boiler is an 18 year old WB 28Si, and because it's owned by an idiot it's not been serviced for 17 years.
Noisy - something is making the outer case vibrate.
Now looks to have a leaking PRV. Actually, it might have had one for a while - I noticed last winter that the pressure kept dropping over a period of time, came up OK when filling loop opened and the highest radiator bled, but then a few weeks later...
The change in pressure from CH not running to CH on often seemed high (a delta of 1.5 bar not unusual).
Yesterday made a hideous clanking kettling sound out of the blue, pressure gauge went high (but the CH wasn't running), and when I switched it off and turned the hot tap on the water that came out was extraordinarily hot and spurty.
When I turned it back on the flashing lights indicated "Fail Point G, Primary Overheat". Which might explain what came out of the tap.
Left it off overnight. Thank whatever we have an electric shower.
Reset button cleared the lights, and it seems to work OK now, but I reckon it's on its last legs, and I'm unsure that spending out on repairs is a good investment.
And I'd rather replace it now than have my terminally ill diagnosis glaringly confirmed in winter.

There was this advice in that thread:

- Find a decent installer first, then fit what they recommend and stick with them for the servicing.

- Find the installer who's right for you. Let them earn your trust then let them choose the boiler.

- get the installer right and let him look after you and the boiler

Which is great, ideally, but easier said than done - I don't have any as friends, or know anybody who can make recommendations. This will only be the second time in my life where I've had a boiler installed, and the first time for 18 years, so no personal experience. I dont trust any of the checkatrade/trusted trader sites.

Basically I was hoping to decide on a replacement model and use a manufacturer accredited installer.

And this time keep the thing serviced.

 

[bernardgreen]

and use a manufacturer accredited installer.

It is said that some manufacturers base ""accreditation"" more on the number of their boilers that the installer installs than on the technical merit of the installer's installations.

 

[sxturbo]

Where are you based?

Which magazine gets there ratings from gas engineers, they do not do any of their own testing on boilers.

The problems with asking gas engineers is that none of them are impartial and will choose a favourite of there's, and there is many reasons they have a favourite, some is because they know they can just bodge something in and the warranty will sort it, some because they get extra discount or a rebate, some just because they like the service they get, etc etc.

Tbh most boilers these days will likely be reliable if installed well, even ferroli they now have Honeywell electronics and gas valve and fan assembly, wilo pump etc.

The best thing to do really is find a decent installer, I know it's a pain and it's hard to find.

I was lucky I was recommended a guy on this forum who just so happened to cover my area.

Intergas Combi is very good for decent domestic hot water. However this is all dependent on the mains pressure also

 

[bernardgreen]

I just noticed the sources for the Which Survey

I dont trust any of the checkatrade/trusted trader sites.

Seems Which might trust the trusted traders....

 

[muggles]

Hence wondering how much trust I should have in what Which? says.

Very little. As they admit to in their small print, the overwhelming majority of their research, and resultant points rating, is from asking customers/owners what they think of their boiler. Customers/owners by and large just see a boiler as a white box on the wall and don't understand the engineering differences between brands and models. They have no frame of reference to compare their own boiler with anybody else's, and so are not a reliable source of information on the build quality and technical ability of their boiler. Add into that some clever multi-million pound marketing by the larger manufacturers creating a "rose-tinted spectacle effect" and you get a very skewed view of what's good and what's not. I've also heard from reliable sources (although not seen evidence myself) that there is some money changing hands between those manufacturers who are recommended and the magazine in question, which gives obvious rise to concerns about impartiality.

As for recommended/accredited installers, what qualifies an installer to attain accreditation does vary from brand to brand, but almost universally do not take account of the quality of the installation. I know that WB installers accreditations are done on number of boilers fitted in a year, so a Gold installer will have fitted more than a Bronze one. It might be that the Bronze installer is less of a pushy salesman and takes more time and care over each installation, thus fitting fewer boilers in a year but actually doing a better job on each install. Not that I'd recommend you have a Woofter, they're overpriced, full of plastic (and rubber in some cases) and a pain to work on - literally, they're well known for having sharp metal edges inside which can easily cut your hands.

So, on to the question you've sort-of asked... which boiler? First you need to establish your mains flow rate, as there's no point having a powerful combi if your mains can't keep up. Look at the Intergas Xclusive - an excellent boiler, well engineered with only four moving parts so very little to go wrong. It uses the latest high efficency OpenTherm control technology (which neither WB nor Faillant can boast) and a 10:1 modulation which should suit your relatively small heating system nicely. The Ravenheat HE30S compact is also worth looking at.

And yes, the quality of the installation is at least as important as the boiler choice. A lot of condensing boilers never actually condense because they aren't set up correctly, making them less efficient. This is something else that depends to some extent on boiler choice - can the pump speed and other parameters be set to match the system, for example? If not, then the boiler isn't going to be as efficient as it could be.

 

[JohnD]

you mentioned "Which? Trusted Traders"

What are they?

Could I pay to be listed as one?

Could I block or edit out unfavourable reviews?

 

[JohnD]

Very little. As they admit to in their small print, the overwhelming majority of their research, and resultant points rating, is from asking customers/owners what they think of their boiler.

Don't they ask, like they do for cars, "how old is it? How many times has it broken down?"

Having thousands of customers answer that question might be informative.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

I just noticed the sources for the Which Survey

View attachment 200994



Seems Which might trust the trusted traders....

Yeh, I know.

 

[vulcancontinental]

Don't they ask, like they do for cars, "how old is it? How many times has it broken down?"

Having thousands of customers answer that question might be informative.

Reading the responses would be more informative I think.

When I queried their modus operandi I got the answers to that years survey, the brand I work for had, I recall, 55 responses from the 70,000 boilers we sold. We got a 'not recommended' I think that year. The answers were often irrelevant, along the lines of 'the installer left a leak, I was unsatisfied' for which we got a negative mark.

I asked for the names and addresses so we could follow them all up, WHICH refused, confidentiality. I suggested we send them stamped addressed envelopes that they could forward to their respondents to allow them to contact us if they wished, WHICH refused. They also mentioned it would not be worth my while writing to them again as they had no intention of answering.

Much can be learned from looking at advertisements in other WHICH magazines like Travel or Money.

 

[JohnD]

advertisements in other WHICH magazines

Are there advertisements in "Which" magazines?

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Very little. As they admit to in their small print, the overwhelming majority of their research, and resultant points rating, is from asking customers/owners what they think of their boiler. Customers/owners by and large just see a boiler as a white box on the wall and don't understand the engineering differences between brands and models. They have no frame of reference to compare their own boiler with anybody else's, and so are not a reliable source of information on the build quality and technical ability of their boiler.

All true, but I expect they know how often theirs had broken down, and whether the engineer could get spares easily.

I've also heard from reliable sources (although not seen evidence myself) that there is some money changing hands between those manufacturers who are recommended and the magazine in question, which gives obvious rise to concerns about impartiality.

I'd be very surprised - they would be dead in the water forever if they ever got found out.

So, on to the question you've sort-of asked... which boiler? First you need to establish your mains flow rate, as there's no point having a powerful combi if your mains can't keep up.

Just over 21l/m

Look at the Intergas Xclusive - an excellent boiler, well engineered with only four moving parts so very little to go wrong. It uses the latest high efficency OpenTherm control technology (which neither WB nor Faillant can boast) and a 10:1 modulation which should suit your relatively small heating system nicely. The Ravenheat HE30S compact is also worth looking at.

I note that Intergas have 8 models.

Really? The differences between any or all of the 8 are so significant that it justifies and requires that many?

A lot of condensing boilers never actually condense because they aren't set up correctly, making them less efficient. This is something else that depends to some extent on boiler choice - can the pump speed and other parameters be set to match the system, for example? If not, then the boiler isn't going to be as efficient as it could be.

Ah, the great condensing-boilers-are-more-efficient myth. Plus if I'm right in what I remember hearing once, as my rads are all sized for the non-condensing boilers of 20+ years ago I'm an even worse position to expect condensing.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Where are you based?

London

 

[Captain Nemesis]

you mentioned "Which? Trusted Traders"

What are they?

Could I pay to be listed as one?

You have to pay if you want to be one.

 

[JohnD]

But if I want to be on "Check a Trust" I can do it by paying, and writing some glowing reviews myself, with false names, right?

Can I do that on the Which site?

 

[Captain Nemesis]

When I queried their modus operandi I got the answers to that years survey, the brand I work for had, I recall, 55 responses from the 70,000 boilers we sold. We got a 'not recommended' I think that year. The answers were often irrelevant, along the lines of 'the installer left a leak, I was unsatisfied' for which we got a negative mark.

That type of rating failure is common to all review sites. I once saw a review of a restaurant, on Michelin's website, which gave the place one star for food, one star for service, one star for ambience and one star for value. Only thing was, the guy had rocked up to a small, popular restaurant on a Friday evening in peak season with no reservation, and they were full, so he couldn't get in, and never experienced the food, the service etc.

I asked for the names and addresses so we could follow them all up, WHICH refused, confidentiality. I suggested we send them stamped addressed envelopes that they could forward to their respondents to allow them to contact us if they wished, WHICH refused. They also mentioned it would not be worth my while writing to them again as they had no intention of answering.

It would have been better for them to take legal action.