23 days and maybe counting?

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OK .. for those who (sometimes with good reason!) accuse me of waffling/rambling posts, this one should be good ammunition :)

Nearly a year ago, I joined this forum because I wanted to ask a few specific questions. Subsequently, and coming as no surprise to me, I became increasing involved in many of the discussions here, some informative, some intellectually interesting/stimulating, some silly, and many in-between. Knowing myself as I do, and given that matters electrical are but a tiny part of my life and interests, I told (maybe almost promised) myself that I would limit my regular active participation to a maximum of one year. Some 4,000 posts later, that leaves me just 23 more days, and I’m sure they will go very quickly.

To what extent I stick to my plan/’promise’ remains to be seen, but I certainly do envisage that the extent of my participation will at least diminish considerably before too long. A ‘clean break’, which is perhaps what I really ought to do, would probably not be that easy for me!

Whatever, I’ve certainly enjoyed and benefited from most of my involvement here, and am grateful to those who have helped to make this the case. I came to this forum with a sound knowledge and understanding of the underlying principles and decades of (mainly ‘amateur’) experience of both theoretical and practical electrical and electronic activities - and I am as capable of reading and assimilating the words of a set of regulations as is anyone else. However, what I lacked was a feeling for how practising electricians generally interpreted the Wiring Regulations when (as often was the case) they were less than crystal clear – and that is what I mainly hoped to gain from involvement with the forum. That has largely proved to be the case but (perhaps because I was naive) I was rather surprised by the extent of controversy and differing opinions in some areas – and particularly surprised by how much debate and argument appears to surround the topics of earthing and bonding! I guess I discovered (no big surprise!) that answers in relation to electrical wiring are often no more ‘black and white’ than they are in most other disciplines and aspects of life! I also hope that I have ‘given’ a little to the forum, as well as taking from it, but that is not for me to judge.

It’s been a little difficult at times to be clear about what side of the fence I’m on - since, although definitely a non-electrician (hence a ‘DIYer’), I am not exactly a typical DIYer either! However, as a fairly well-informed ‘outsider’, I may have on occasions been able to bring a viewpoint or perspective to bear which is a little different from that of those whose working lives are ‘saturated’ with matters electrical, and who are constrained to work in certain ways because of their status as professional electricians – so maybe I’ve at least stimulated some useful thought at times!

So I guess I now need to try to make the most of however much further participation in the forum I decide to allow myself!

Kind Regards, John.
 
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I would agree John that it's not as cut and dried as people at first think. And earthing must be one of the major items which can it seems have a completely opposite approach both which are considered safe.

The shaver socket is safe because it has no earth yet 701.410.3.6 seems on one hand to say they are not permitted! We have for years bonded as if there was no tomorrow but now we have
Where the location containing a bath or shower is in a building with a protective equipotential bonding system in accordance with Regulation 411.3.1.2, supplementary equipotential bonding may be omitted where all of the following conditions are met:
and it just seems to be a reversal on all we knew.

I think the main problem is the blind following of rules without understanding. To get a shock one has to complete a circuit so no way of completing the circuit i.e. shaver socket then no shock. The other method of protection is to make it so should there be a fault then the protective devices will open.

Two major changes to building and protective devices have resulted in a major re-think as to best method. Plastic Pipe and the RCD are the major changes.

The problem with metal pipes is they can unless earthed transmit a fault from room to room. So a standard lamp knocked over by the cat in the kitchen could cause some one to get a shock in the bathroom if no bonding or RCD is used. But with plastic this is no longer the case however the problem is that to insulate needs around on meter of plastic pipe. However pipe fitters will use plastic connectors on metal pipes which means only a few mm separation.

So the guys writing the regulations have to consider which method will in the main result in the safest system. Also the readers of the regulations have to consider if what they have is in some way odd and not really covered with regulations.

Back in the days of 15th Edition (Before it was a British Standard) we used them as a guide. And we made that decision as to if to follow to letter or not. However with the 16th Edition we also got the exam to show we can read the book. And also the start of the blame system where some one has to be to blame it was no longer just bad luck.

So now even when it just does not make sense (Like fitting a RCD to a SELV supply) people will still blindly follow the regulations. The law with Part P has made it even worse with members of a scheme being worried as to if any deviation to the regs is made losing their self certify status.

It has also at the same time opened a opportunity for people with half a brain to make money by ignoring the regulations and laws. It has always been the case people will flout the laws to make money. Smuggling has gone on for years, but that did not result in the sort of dangers with back street electrics.

I have seen both the good and the bad of Part P regulations and to be blunt it's the OTT charges of the LABC which has resulted in the bad bits. Just like the OTT customs charges.

When offered spirits from Ireland (duty free) at the same price or just a £1 cheaper than I could buy Vodka I just bought the Vodka. And until government realises it's their greed which means the system fails then we will always have people who will try to get around it without paying.

We had a great system with the Unions and the closed shop. All these regulations have been needed to replace the closed shop and the home owner has to pay as a result.

Well that's my rant over. I still think we should train electrics and return to 6 years apprenticeship (Starting a 14 years old) instead of the system we have today keeping people in school learning things which will not help them instead of teaching them what is really needed to do the job.
 
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Sorry to hear that you are thinking of leaving. I am but an occasional poster to this forum and a complete amateur at that, though I do at least have a basic knowledge of electrical principles.
I have been struck by your unfailing good manners on this forum, in stark contrast to some of the regular posters. I have also been impressed by your ability to see the point of view of other users.
My own view is that nothing is to be gained by blunt responses to posters on this forum. I think one should asume that anyone who visits this place is genuinely looking for advice. Sarcasm and downright bad manners have no place eiher from OPs or from responders.
For those reasons, John, I say thank you for your always polite contributions. Please stay around. I will continue to read your posts (though maybe not all of them!) with great interest.
 
Don't leave John. How else am I going to get to sleep at night if I don't have your posts to read?
 
May as well stay for the ride even if it's you don't contribute as much...

regards Chivers
 
John, may I wish you a very happy up and coming first anniversary. I found some of your post most intelligent and informative and you have put yourself across very well, in a polite and well mannered fashion whilst doing so. You are an asset to the website/forum, may you continue in the same vain.
Despite what I knew some people would think/say, I was not fishing for compliments, but I'm nevertheless grateful for your kind words.

The one compliment I will happily accept is for always posting in "a polite and well-mannered fashion", sometimes even in the face of provocation. I believe it to be unnecessary and unhelpful to ever be otherwise - and one of my saddnesses about this forum is that there are a few who have a lot to contribute who often do not subscribe to the same approach. Apart from anything else, I think that their approach is actually counterproductive in terms of getting their points across, as well as being contrary to common decency. One can even tell someone that they are talking complete rubbish with resorting to rudeness, or worse. However, no discussion forum on the face of this earth is without such people, so it's not something I lose sleep over.

Kind Regards, John.
 
I have been struck by your unfailing good manners on this forum, in stark contrast to some of the regular posters. I have also been impressed by your ability to see the point of view of other users. .... My own view is that nothing is to be gained by blunt responses to posters on this forum. I think one should asume that anyone who visits this place is genuinely looking for advice. Sarcasm and downright bad manners have no place eiher from OPs or from responders.
Thanks. As I've just written in another post, I have no problem with being complimented for politeness, and totally agree with the rest of what you say.

Kind Regards, John.
 
OK .. for those who (sometimes with good reason!) accuse me of waffling/rambling posts, this one should be good ammunition :)

Did'nt read it, worn enough of my eyes out reading your 'yea, no, but yea maybe, no but' nonsense.

Good riddance, but as we both know, you're not leaving, you're just trying to boost your ridiculous ego by monitoring positive responses to your post.

What a mean-spirited person you are.
 
However, no discussion forum on the face of this earth is without such people, so it's not something I lose sleep over.

Strangely enough I'm a member of one where such behaviour very quickly gets stamped on by the mods, it has roughly twice the membership of this site.

John the thing that you should consider is that you, in your own way, are very good at challenging the status quo (you've put me on the spot a few times) which may upset some. But to those I would say that if you are the professionals you claim to be you should be able to counter any argument without resorting to insult. Play the argument not the individual!!
 
John, You've helped me with my posts and shown me (and others) that there is a more civilised approach to informing and educating people on situations rather than the "BAS" approach.

I'm grateful for the information you have shared with me, and I hope it continues for another year! :)
 
May as well stay for the ride even if it's you don't contribute as much...
As I sort-of implied, that's really what I'd like to do. However, you can probably appreciate that my personality is such that I would find that pretty frustrating and difficult - hence my 'promise' to myself :) (it's by no means the first time I've had a '4,000 post year' in a forum, before jumping to another relating to a totally different subject area). I probably will try to 'ease of the gas', and see how it goes - but "we'll see".

Kind Regards, John.
 
<just what one would expect>
I was initially not going to respond to your post but, on reflection, thought it presented an opportunity to ask something I've been meaning to ask for months .... I fully respect your right to have the view that you do about me and my posts, which you do not regard as worth reading - so why on earth haven't you made use of the
facility which exists in this forum?

Kind Regards, John.
 
I think the main problem is the blind following of rules without understanding.
As you know, that is one of my soap-box topics, since I have be been shocked (fortunately very rarely in this forum) by some of the things I have heard coming from the mouths of electricians. Quite apart from making for much better/safer electricians (or the same in any other field), with a good understanding of underlying principles, learning rules and regulations becomes a lot less onerous, because many of them simply 'make sense', and therefore don't need to be learned parrot-fashion.

I also agree with most of the rest of what you say.

Kind Regards, John.
 

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