Am I going to be sued ?
- Thread starter mkb
- Start date
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too right as there seems to be a lot off chances out there now wanting work done for f...all. thankyou for your input
J
johnheritage
I have spoken with trading standards, had people investigated, sued people, spoken in person with a judge in the small claims courts, have a family member who is a lawyer in London, had confidential correspondence with pharmaceutical companies over new drugs and on...
This thread is a joke.
He's been asked, multiple times, by different people, to describe the complaints and work in more detail.
None of that has been answered. Which, for me, is a strong warning sign that he's messed up and is looking for moral support, not legal help.
He says he's taken a camera into there. Part of judging a legal case like this is whether or not the majority of other people doing the same job would say it was acceptable. So those descriptions and the photos need to be seen by others. In fact, for a court case to work on quite a lot of cases like this, she'll need to get someone from somewhere like the Master Builders round to assess the quality, as an independent reference for the judge (who's not likely a decorator).
The cat on the window sill thing, that's entirely her problem. She should have kept it out of the room because even a judge will know it's reasonable to expect fresh paint to not be cat proof immediately. ***
But I seriously doubt someone would go to this much bother if paw prints (that had been repainted) where the only problem. Something is telling me there are other, not mentioned, problems.
I've met a lot of guys who say they're professionals or skilled, and genuinely believe it, and genuinely aren't. I very rarely bother using the word professional or any other superlative anymore with regards to work I do, because it's meaningless.
Long delays are encouraging, but they don't mean it's not still going to happen. It takes time to read the advice on filing court claims, time to speak to a lawyer and time for the court to reply.
Being paid for the work means nothing if you were paid as it was being done or if the problems were found / occurred after it was finished. It will mean even less if it was cash in hand and you weren't declaring it as income, as that's then tax evasion - which they can check by asking the bank for your statements for that period of time (the bank has to give those to the court, so it's not really a request).
Ignoring someone when they send you a letter, especially one relating to a legal complaint and signed for, is a VERY bad idea. The judge doesn't want to see small claims cases, because it's usually boring and petty, and wastes the time he could be spending on more serious problems (murder, child abuse etc).
They want you to have as much proof as possible that you tried to sort the problem out first - e.g. a photocopy of the letters you send back, with the receipt from posting it as proof it was sent to that address. They even advise you to speak to an arbitrator or a Guild before the court.
A judge will decide who owes what after hearing the case (and seeing photos). He can ask for 100% of the charge back, the court fees AND any expenses she's incurred as a result of your work and the court case (time off work / stress / paint for redoing things). Or, he can choose a small charge to repair SOME of the work.
The amount is based on what other people involved in that area think of your work. If 3 different guys come in and say, that's horrendous and it may as well all come off, you'll get raped on the money. Your mates, and hers, are not an unbiased reference, and kind of pointless in a court case. It has to be someone most people agree has some idea of what they're talking about and doesn't really care who wins or looses.
If you ignore the court or don't pay up, they'll issue a bailiff order against you to seize assets and immediately auction them, with no reserve. So you can have paid £1k for a new TV and have it cover £0.01's worth of the order if no one at the auction happens to want it. Leaving you down £999.99 on the TV and with the rest of it to pay. Declaring bankruptcy will entirely wreck your chances of getting a loan, mortgage or credit again and they will seize the assets as well, and won't go away - they'll still want it back decades later.
The most important point out of all of this is..... WHAT IS SHE COMPLAINING ABOUT?
Need VERY specific details about ALL of the faults she's suggesting suing you for - preferably in her words. Not "I think I did a good job". Photos would be good too. I thought I did a good job fixing up our back garden, then realized I'd put a gully in without a trap.
If this kind of thing happens to you, you have two options.
1.) You're 100% confident that the work would be passed as okay by a lot of the good people in your area of work. So you reply saying, "I believe this work is up to the standard of ...[well known, reliable reference - e.g. Part P requirements for electrics]... I would correct it if found not to be but would recommend you consult [that standard]"
2.) You're not sure (e.g. it's a decorating job, where there's no black and white standard defined for the neatness of your work), so you DESCRIBE IN DETAIL and show photographs of it to other people.
I can't stress that enough. You're asking for advice on something that could cost you your house, without actually mentioning anything to do with what it is she's not happy with.
***We had some builders round who fitted the kitchen. Before the doors got on, they went home and the cat ****ed in all of the units to mark them. I woke up and found one of the builders was cleaning the insides. I said thanks for that, knowing that was my fault and nothing to do with their work.
This thread is a joke.
He's been asked, multiple times, by different people, to describe the complaints and work in more detail.
None of that has been answered. Which, for me, is a strong warning sign that he's messed up and is looking for moral support, not legal help.
He says he's taken a camera into there. Part of judging a legal case like this is whether or not the majority of other people doing the same job would say it was acceptable. So those descriptions and the photos need to be seen by others. In fact, for a court case to work on quite a lot of cases like this, she'll need to get someone from somewhere like the Master Builders round to assess the quality, as an independent reference for the judge (who's not likely a decorator).
The cat on the window sill thing, that's entirely her problem. She should have kept it out of the room because even a judge will know it's reasonable to expect fresh paint to not be cat proof immediately. ***
But I seriously doubt someone would go to this much bother if paw prints (that had been repainted) where the only problem. Something is telling me there are other, not mentioned, problems.
I've met a lot of guys who say they're professionals or skilled, and genuinely believe it, and genuinely aren't. I very rarely bother using the word professional or any other superlative anymore with regards to work I do, because it's meaningless.
Long delays are encouraging, but they don't mean it's not still going to happen. It takes time to read the advice on filing court claims, time to speak to a lawyer and time for the court to reply.
Being paid for the work means nothing if you were paid as it was being done or if the problems were found / occurred after it was finished. It will mean even less if it was cash in hand and you weren't declaring it as income, as that's then tax evasion - which they can check by asking the bank for your statements for that period of time (the bank has to give those to the court, so it's not really a request).
Ignoring someone when they send you a letter, especially one relating to a legal complaint and signed for, is a VERY bad idea. The judge doesn't want to see small claims cases, because it's usually boring and petty, and wastes the time he could be spending on more serious problems (murder, child abuse etc).
They want you to have as much proof as possible that you tried to sort the problem out first - e.g. a photocopy of the letters you send back, with the receipt from posting it as proof it was sent to that address. They even advise you to speak to an arbitrator or a Guild before the court.
A judge will decide who owes what after hearing the case (and seeing photos). He can ask for 100% of the charge back, the court fees AND any expenses she's incurred as a result of your work and the court case (time off work / stress / paint for redoing things). Or, he can choose a small charge to repair SOME of the work.
The amount is based on what other people involved in that area think of your work. If 3 different guys come in and say, that's horrendous and it may as well all come off, you'll get raped on the money. Your mates, and hers, are not an unbiased reference, and kind of pointless in a court case. It has to be someone most people agree has some idea of what they're talking about and doesn't really care who wins or looses.
If you ignore the court or don't pay up, they'll issue a bailiff order against you to seize assets and immediately auction them, with no reserve. So you can have paid £1k for a new TV and have it cover £0.01's worth of the order if no one at the auction happens to want it. Leaving you down £999.99 on the TV and with the rest of it to pay. Declaring bankruptcy will entirely wreck your chances of getting a loan, mortgage or credit again and they will seize the assets as well, and won't go away - they'll still want it back decades later.
The most important point out of all of this is..... WHAT IS SHE COMPLAINING ABOUT?
Need VERY specific details about ALL of the faults she's suggesting suing you for - preferably in her words. Not "I think I did a good job". Photos would be good too. I thought I did a good job fixing up our back garden, then realized I'd put a gully in without a trap.
If this kind of thing happens to you, you have two options.
1.) You're 100% confident that the work would be passed as okay by a lot of the good people in your area of work. So you reply saying, "I believe this work is up to the standard of ...[well known, reliable reference - e.g. Part P requirements for electrics]... I would correct it if found not to be but would recommend you consult [that standard]"
2.) You're not sure (e.g. it's a decorating job, where there's no black and white standard defined for the neatness of your work), so you DESCRIBE IN DETAIL and show photographs of it to other people.
I can't stress that enough. You're asking for advice on something that could cost you your house, without actually mentioning anything to do with what it is she's not happy with.
***We had some builders round who fitted the kitchen. Before the doors got on, they went home and the cat ****ed in all of the units to mark them. I woke up and found one of the builders was cleaning the insides. I said thanks for that, knowing that was my fault and nothing to do with their work.
So are u in the legal profesion than ??
generally speaking a tradesman is not a legal expert , & why should they be ? there will always be someone who for what ever reason will attempt to take advantage of some ones ignorance , & IMHO the legal profesion are masters of it !
I will always side with the tradesman untill such time as I am shown different ?
generally speaking a tradesman is not a legal expert , & why should they be ? there will always be someone who for what ever reason will attempt to take advantage of some ones ignorance , & IMHO the legal profesion are masters of it !
I will always side with the tradesman untill such time as I am shown different ?
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johnheritage....thanks for your input but to be fair I don't think you've read all the posts.
1.I couldn't possibly describe in detail ALL her complaints there were 100 ish !!
2. Against certain advice in previous posts I have NOT ignored any of her letters.
3. She refused to let me take photos.
4. I have kept copies off ALL correspondence.
5. The cash payment WAS declared in my books.
6. I told trading standards AND I told her that as far as I was concerned I would have no hesitation in letting an independent third party from a trade body do a report.
7. And I am under NO illusion that at any time I can expect to receive a summons on the doorstep.
I wont bore everybody by retelling the whole chronology of events but I think the statement from a mutual friend sums it up....' I believe you've done some work for looney tunes !!!!'
Apparently ther are people out there who you do work for...say they're happy with it...they pay you..ask you to do another room...say they're happy with it..pay you...and then five weeks later they're not happy with any of it !!
But thanks for your input anyway...and that isn't meant to be sarcastic by the way.
1.I couldn't possibly describe in detail ALL her complaints there were 100 ish !!
2. Against certain advice in previous posts I have NOT ignored any of her letters.
3. She refused to let me take photos.
4. I have kept copies off ALL correspondence.
5. The cash payment WAS declared in my books.
6. I told trading standards AND I told her that as far as I was concerned I would have no hesitation in letting an independent third party from a trade body do a report.
7. And I am under NO illusion that at any time I can expect to receive a summons on the doorstep.
I wont bore everybody by retelling the whole chronology of events but I think the statement from a mutual friend sums it up....' I believe you've done some work for looney tunes !!!!'
Apparently ther are people out there who you do work for...say they're happy with it...they pay you..ask you to do another room...say they're happy with it..pay you...and then five weeks later they're not happy with any of it !!
But thanks for your input anyway...and that isn't meant to be sarcastic by the way.
J
joinerjohn
Years ago when I was self employed, I worked on a loft conversion for a schoolteacher. Did exactly what was quoted for throughout the time I was there. I ended up walking away from the job, due to lack of payments for stages completed. Wrote to the chap saying I was going to pursue a claim through the small courts unless payment was received within x days.
Next thing I got was court papers from small claims court instigated by him for shoddy/illegal works. We didn't have digital cameras etc in those days. Almost 99.9% of what he was claiming was BS. For instance he claimed I'd put plasterboard up the wrong way. I'd not even fixed any plasterboard up as that was the plasterers job!
I'd installed a Velux window which now leaked. All I had done was to fix the Velux in place (he had a roofer there to sort the tiling etc out). A door frame was not plumb or level. (I'd walked off before this went in).
Went to court and sat there whilst he went through the list of faults. When it was my turn, I told the judge about the non payment of money agreed at the start of the job. What work I had actually done and the 99.9% of the work he claims I had done when I wasn't even there.
The chap even admitted that the door frame had been put in by someone else, but he wasn't happy about it.
The case was thrown out by the judge and the complainant warned that he was under oath and had lied.
Later on I sent the chap a letter asking for payments withheld and again offering to go through the small claims court... Payment was received within the week.
He also thought he'd report me to the inland revenue and I got called into the tax office with my books. When they saw I had detailed accounts for the job they left me alone.
Next thing I got was court papers from small claims court instigated by him for shoddy/illegal works. We didn't have digital cameras etc in those days. Almost 99.9% of what he was claiming was BS. For instance he claimed I'd put plasterboard up the wrong way. I'd not even fixed any plasterboard up as that was the plasterers job!
I'd installed a Velux window which now leaked. All I had done was to fix the Velux in place (he had a roofer there to sort the tiling etc out). A door frame was not plumb or level. (I'd walked off before this went in).
Went to court and sat there whilst he went through the list of faults. When it was my turn, I told the judge about the non payment of money agreed at the start of the job. What work I had actually done and the 99.9% of the work he claims I had done when I wasn't even there.
The chap even admitted that the door frame had been put in by someone else, but he wasn't happy about it.
The case was thrown out by the judge and the complainant warned that he was under oath and had lied.
Later on I sent the chap a letter asking for payments withheld and again offering to go through the small claims court... Payment was received within the week.
He also thought he'd report me to the inland revenue and I got called into the tax office with my books. When they saw I had detailed accounts for the job they left me alone.
joinerjohn...So I was right..there are nutcases, crackpots, chancers and looney tunes around that actually tell lies and make up untruths. So perhaps people will believe me now (well at least certain people )
WHAT A HORRIBLE THING THIS IS AND TO MANY PEOPLE DO IT AND GET AWAY WITH IT,
well legal fees could cost you more then the job,the women will take you to court and has a good chance of winning but upto now the amount of money is minimal so it will be only heard in the small claims court,
so document, EVERY letter text phone call made show letters of trying to solve the problem pictures of damage done by 3 rd parties etc,
ive been here on more then 1 occasion not nice place to be good luck
well legal fees could cost you more then the job,the women will take you to court and has a good chance of winning but upto now the amount of money is minimal so it will be only heard in the small claims court,
so document, EVERY letter text phone call made show letters of trying to solve the problem pictures of damage done by 3 rd parties etc,
ive been here on more then 1 occasion not nice place to be good luck
I have no idea about the rights or wrongsof this saga, , but Small Claims procedure need not be frightening.
It is not The Old Bailey with a Docks and cells nor is it high powered barristers and bewigged robed judges.
It's you and your opponent in a small room with na table and chairs and a judge in a suit.
The procedure is much less formal than a television court and demands just common sense and honest statements and answers.
Do not be bounced into a settlement by somebody threatening you with a "Court Action."
You will get fair treatment and the costs will be reasonable, but charged to the one found to be at fault, or apportioned if there is a mixed result.
It is not The Old Bailey with a Docks and cells nor is it high powered barristers and bewigged robed judges.
It's you and your opponent in a small room with na table and chairs and a judge in a suit.
The procedure is much less formal than a television court and demands just common sense and honest statements and answers.
Do not be bounced into a settlement by somebody threatening you with a "Court Action."
You will get fair treatment and the costs will be reasonable, but charged to the one found to be at fault, or apportioned if there is a mixed result.
Eight weeks now .....no more word from her...fingers crossed.
There seems to be a little confusion regarding costs should it end up in court. The solicitor at the free local legal clinic said as it was a small claims court business there would be no costs awarded...and he even said I could defend myself anyway...and if she got a solicitor SHE would have to pay for that herself regardless of who won the case !!!
There seems to be a little confusion regarding costs should it end up in court. The solicitor at the free local legal clinic said as it was a small claims court business there would be no costs awarded...and he even said I could defend myself anyway...and if she got a solicitor SHE would have to pay for that herself regardless of who won the case !!!
Good guide is here.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm
Costs are only the Court Fees; these vary with the amount claimed.
At this level any professional fees for solicitors cannot be claimed, but the judge may order that a neutral "professional" expert on the topic under dispute is appointed to give an opinion. The costs of such an expert are charged.
The costs escalate if the "loser" does not pay up and the debt has to be pursued.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm
Costs are only the Court Fees; these vary with the amount claimed.
At this level any professional fees for solicitors cannot be claimed, but the judge may order that a neutral "professional" expert on the topic under dispute is appointed to give an opinion. The costs of such an expert are charged.
The costs escalate if the "loser" does not pay up and the debt has to be pursued.
Understood Tony...Cheers.
Hi Mate, Its hard but don't worry about it. Firstly if you have done the job right there is nothing to worry about. If she was unhappy she should tell you, first and if you refuse then get to the CAB.
I would write back via registered mail - saying that you are happy to return to discuss any issues - see exactly what she's on about.
what she has done is get your competition round for a quote saying that what you have done is not good enough so he has doubled his quote to cover the extra hassle he is going to have to put up with to re-do it.
What she should have done is get an independant surveyor round not someone who is going to profit byu re-doing the work, he has a vested interest in saying yes it needs re-doing as he wants the money!
I would point out to her that she should get an independant survey by a professional decorator with no vested interest in the work itself.
Most likely she has had her brother-in-law who is a decorator round and told him what you have done is wrong and it needs doing again and he's just agreeing - and why not its not his problem!
She can't get another decorator to re-do the work for double the price and then bill you for it so don't worry.
You have to try and put it right, if its defective wallpaper that you supplied then get her to choose a different paper from a different manufacturer and re-do it (and try to claim a refund for the paper from the manufacturer after). If she supplied the paper and you hung it according to the manufacturers specifications then id point that out and tell her to take it up with them, after all its her paper you just hung it for her!
She could not wait for you to return from holiday, so she's been on the internet and got advise and of course she has told them a very one sided view - hers!
If you can stand by your work and she won't let you back to sort the problem then she should give trading standards a call - this may make you a little more worried but if you are confident that your work is of saleable standard then let trading standards have a look.
They will see that your work is fine and tell her she has no claim!
I bet she is single, over 50 years old, probably widowed in the last five years too!
I expect that she spends all day watching builders from hell and getting spammed on the internet so just sees everything as a con/scam and is seeing being ripped off where it does not exist.
Or she could just be a complete 'female canine'
There are a lot of bad clients out there far more that bad tradesmen 1,000 to one but you never see the tradesman getting ripped off by clients and spam advertising which happens every day! hope my waffle helps, if I can help happy to talk.
I would write back via registered mail - saying that you are happy to return to discuss any issues - see exactly what she's on about.
what she has done is get your competition round for a quote saying that what you have done is not good enough so he has doubled his quote to cover the extra hassle he is going to have to put up with to re-do it.
What she should have done is get an independant surveyor round not someone who is going to profit byu re-doing the work, he has a vested interest in saying yes it needs re-doing as he wants the money!
I would point out to her that she should get an independant survey by a professional decorator with no vested interest in the work itself.
Most likely she has had her brother-in-law who is a decorator round and told him what you have done is wrong and it needs doing again and he's just agreeing - and why not its not his problem!
She can't get another decorator to re-do the work for double the price and then bill you for it so don't worry.
You have to try and put it right, if its defective wallpaper that you supplied then get her to choose a different paper from a different manufacturer and re-do it (and try to claim a refund for the paper from the manufacturer after). If she supplied the paper and you hung it according to the manufacturers specifications then id point that out and tell her to take it up with them, after all its her paper you just hung it for her!
She could not wait for you to return from holiday, so she's been on the internet and got advise and of course she has told them a very one sided view - hers!
If you can stand by your work and she won't let you back to sort the problem then she should give trading standards a call - this may make you a little more worried but if you are confident that your work is of saleable standard then let trading standards have a look.
They will see that your work is fine and tell her she has no claim!
I bet she is single, over 50 years old, probably widowed in the last five years too!
I expect that she spends all day watching builders from hell and getting spammed on the internet so just sees everything as a con/scam and is seeing being ripped off where it does not exist.
Or she could just be a complete 'female canine'
There are a lot of bad clients out there far more that bad tradesmen 1,000 to one but you never see the tradesman getting ripped off by clients and spam advertising which happens every day! hope my waffle helps, if I can help happy to talk.
I have just read all 7 pages and I reacon you can forget about the oxygen thief! When i was a servic manager for an a/con company I used to get the odd customer from hell like the one who had just moved from south africa, had a fully ducted system fitted to their new house, 3 days before christmas, 40 deg celcius outside, 98%humidity, windows open, the controller set on 16 degrees and this rocket scientist can't understand why the outlets are sweating everywhere and ruining the gyprock (plasterboard).
He threatened all sorts of crap until I explained things to him and the builder basically told him to p&^# off and wake up to himself. I rest the system to how it should have been set and surpise surprise it worked fine.
The builders then charged him to replace or re-seal the water stained gyprock and repaint the whole ceiling.
Best of luck
Cheers Ezy
He threatened all sorts of crap until I explained things to him and the builder basically told him to p&^# off and wake up to himself. I rest the system to how it should have been set and surpise surprise it worked fine.
The builders then charged him to replace or re-seal the water stained gyprock and repaint the whole ceiling.
Best of luck
Cheers Ezy
Me too i've just read all seven pages and was surprised not to see a conclusion.
The TV constantly shows programmes featuring dodgy tradesman which they name and shame, it would be nice to feature dodgy customers and name and shame them.
There is without doubt a percentage of society who prey on tradesman, they have realised that our reputations are of great importance and the threat against this reputation can convince the gullible tradesman to give in/ pay up in cases such as this to protect themselves.
These leacherous scumbags then end up with free work and move on to the next poor trade with another job they want doing with absolutely no intention of it costing them anything from the start.
Stick to your guns and teach her a lesson and it wouldn't hurt for her name to be quietly passed around all the local trade shops/counters.
Good luck and keep us updated.
The TV constantly shows programmes featuring dodgy tradesman which they name and shame, it would be nice to feature dodgy customers and name and shame them.
There is without doubt a percentage of society who prey on tradesman, they have realised that our reputations are of great importance and the threat against this reputation can convince the gullible tradesman to give in/ pay up in cases such as this to protect themselves.
These leacherous scumbags then end up with free work and move on to the next poor trade with another job they want doing with absolutely no intention of it costing them anything from the start.
Stick to your guns and teach her a lesson and it wouldn't hurt for her name to be quietly passed around all the local trade shops/counters.
Good luck and keep us updated.
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