Like what I used to have
Yes Dan, still got a room stat to provide an intrlock/central conrol
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Yes Dan, still got a room stat to provide an intrlock/central conrol
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B
Brightonguy
DoItAll, the Honeywell EVO home is super expensive.
Dan, thanks for your input. Thinking again. I read the installation manual for the combi and heat exchanger is bullet proof. You can have the CH part empty and just use it like an Ascot Multi-point water heater and vice-versa. The heat exchanger does not require a minimum flow at all, as it needs none. The control system does switch out the pump when the room stat is satisfied (reaches its set point). What I suggested would work. Either a) replace the pump with Smart pump. It looks like one could fit in, or b) remove the pump and put terminal block on the pump wires, and insert a length of pipe and fitting the Smart Wilo pump external to the combi, switched only by the time clock, so it is always running when the time clock says so. Wiring for room stat runs through the flow switch. The makers disowning it is another matter, but it will work.
But leaving the combi as it is, so no makers complaints, and set the internal pump to the lowest position, and fit the Wilo Smart pump externally inline with the existing pump, as push and pull pumps, and fit the flow switch in front of the Wilo Smart pump. Then rad valves can be on all rads and no boiler cycling. Set the Wilo to the lowest setting in most cases (both pumps on low).
The manual states: Note It is no longer permissible to utilize a non-thermostatic controlled radiator as a by-pass.
I assume because the rad can be turned off.
Also..
8.1.2 Thermostatic radiator valves If all radiators are equipped with thermostatic or radiator valves, an auto bypass must be fitted in order to guarantee minimum water circulation. The auto bypass must be as far as possible from the appliance in order to prevent overheating of the appliance.
The above point about minimum circulation contradicts the point they made that either the CH or hot water side of the heat exchanger can be empty of water.
But the manual does say you can have rad valves on all rads as above (cut & pasted from the manual) as long as you have an auto bypass. If this is the case then the boiler will cycle so you need an electrical switch of some sort to cut out the burner to stop boiler cycling.
Dan, thanks for your input. Thinking again. I read the installation manual for the combi and heat exchanger is bullet proof. You can have the CH part empty and just use it like an Ascot Multi-point water heater and vice-versa. The heat exchanger does not require a minimum flow at all, as it needs none. The control system does switch out the pump when the room stat is satisfied (reaches its set point). What I suggested would work. Either a) replace the pump with Smart pump. It looks like one could fit in, or b) remove the pump and put terminal block on the pump wires, and insert a length of pipe and fitting the Smart Wilo pump external to the combi, switched only by the time clock, so it is always running when the time clock says so. Wiring for room stat runs through the flow switch. The makers disowning it is another matter, but it will work.
But leaving the combi as it is, so no makers complaints, and set the internal pump to the lowest position, and fit the Wilo Smart pump externally inline with the existing pump, as push and pull pumps, and fit the flow switch in front of the Wilo Smart pump. Then rad valves can be on all rads and no boiler cycling. Set the Wilo to the lowest setting in most cases (both pumps on low).
The manual states: Note It is no longer permissible to utilize a non-thermostatic controlled radiator as a by-pass.
I assume because the rad can be turned off.
Also..
8.1.2 Thermostatic radiator valves If all radiators are equipped with thermostatic or radiator valves, an auto bypass must be fitted in order to guarantee minimum water circulation. The auto bypass must be as far as possible from the appliance in order to prevent overheating of the appliance.
The above point about minimum circulation contradicts the point they made that either the CH or hot water side of the heat exchanger can be empty of water.
But the manual does say you can have rad valves on all rads as above (cut & pasted from the manual) as long as you have an auto bypass. If this is the case then the boiler will cycle so you need an electrical switch of some sort to cut out the burner to stop boiler cycling.
Please don't tell me what the boiler can or can't do. I know full well what the heat exchanger is capable of as well as its limitations.
Your idea won't be any more efficient.
It won't comply with building regs.
Is unnecessarily complicated.
Will invalidate the warranty if you start tinkering with internal wiring.
Which also breaches the rules on modifying appliances.
The end result can be achieved better and more easily.
You are conflating ideas, components and terminology and misunderstanding it all in the process
I will be VERY surprised if you can get a smart pump head to fit in there.
Will cause the pump to dead head.
Will cause the boiler to cycle unnecessarily.
.
How do you think a smart pump is going to behave with another pump pushing into it through an auto bypass?
It is clear that you are not willing to listen so you by all means crack on.
I will say once again. Fit a Honeywell pack 5. Job done.
Compliant.
Efficient.
Wire free.
Guaranteed to work.
Can use the opentherm control bus.
Simple.
Unless this is a Joe90 windup of course
Your idea won't be any more efficient.
It won't comply with building regs.
Is unnecessarily complicated.
Will invalidate the warranty if you start tinkering with internal wiring.
Which also breaches the rules on modifying appliances.
The end result can be achieved better and more easily.
You are conflating ideas, components and terminology and misunderstanding it all in the process
I will be VERY surprised if you can get a smart pump head to fit in there.
Will cause the pump to dead head.
Will cause the boiler to cycle unnecessarily.
.
How do you think a smart pump is going to behave with another pump pushing into it through an auto bypass?
It is clear that you are not willing to listen so you by all means crack on.
I will say once again. Fit a Honeywell pack 5. Job done.
Compliant.
Efficient.
Wire free.
Guaranteed to work.
Can use the opentherm control bus.
Simple.
Unless this is a Joe90 windup of course
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B
Brightonguy
This thread is for the benefit of others as well.
The exchanger is highly robust for sure. And the manual does contradict itself.The idea (external Wilo Smart pump and flow switch) will cut out the boiler cycling for sure and keep the makers happy. It will be more efficient as it cuts out cycling and gives fully independent room temperature control.
It will comply with building regs, there is nothing to say you cannot have two pumps on a CH system, and anti-boiler-cycling (I think they call it an interlock) is met. Fully complies.
Is is not unnecessarily complicated, as it is just an external Wilo Smart pump wired off the clock and a flow switch which replaces the room stat. Very simple in fact.
I am not tinkering with internal wiring, which make me think you never read what I wrote properly.
You write, "The end result can be achieved better and more easily". How? I would like to know a better easier way to have thermostatic rad valves on all rads and stop boiler cycling.
Believe me I am not misunderstanding anything. Read what I wrote.
You wrote, " I will be VERY surprised if you can get a smart pump head to fit in there. It will cause the pump to dead head." Smart pumps wind down when seeing a dead head. That is the idea of them.
It is clear that you are not willing to read what I wrote. I wrote how you could do it by going into the boiler's innards (replacing a pump top and disconnect the pump wiring, connect the pump to the time clock) and how to do it externally keeping the guarantee, not touching the boiler. An external Smart pump and restrictor to get the temperature difference between the flow and return pipes if need be (manual mentions this) the and flow switch will mean it conforms and does the job of having thermo rad valves on all rads. Think it through. It was easy enough.
Thanks for your input, although you got your knickers in a twist at times.
What is a Joe90 windup?
B
Brightonguy
Dan, when you mentioned a low loss header I thought a bit more about a zoned CH system using the Intergas. Have a pipe looping from the flow to the return on the boiler, a primary loop. Tee off this primary loop the upstairs and down stairs heating loops and bring back the returns from these loops into the primary loop, near the boiler. On the primary loop have an auto by-pass valve between the two CH zone flow pipe and the two CH zone return pipes. This will open only when all rad vales are closed and the boiler pump is on the over-run. On each heating loop thermo valves on all rads. On each heating loop have a Wilo Smart pump. Directly in front of the pumps have a check valve and a flow switch. A simple time clock for each CH zone.
When the rad valves all close on a heating zone the boiler is switched out. The flow switches act as end switches in a zone valve with the room stat circuit wired through the flow switches. If all rad valves are closed the boiler and its pump are switched out. When one valve opens the Smart pumps start up open the flow switch and brings in the boiler and its pump.
No wall stats are needed, no boiler cycling, and reduced noise in the system as the Smart pumps wind down when rads valves start to close off.
This will work. Do you think the auto by-pass valve is needed in the primary loop? Or should this be a full through pipe loop?
ta.
When the rad valves all close on a heating zone the boiler is switched out. The flow switches act as end switches in a zone valve with the room stat circuit wired through the flow switches. If all rad valves are closed the boiler and its pump are switched out. When one valve opens the Smart pumps start up open the flow switch and brings in the boiler and its pump.
No wall stats are needed, no boiler cycling, and reduced noise in the system as the Smart pumps wind down when rads valves start to close off.
This will work. Do you think the auto by-pass valve is needed in the primary loop? Or should this be a full through pipe loop?
ta.
This thread is for the benefit of others as well.
Quite the opposite, the thread has no worth to man nor beast, in fact I'm surprised it hasn't been locked by now.
Yes the ECO is expensive, but you get what you pay for.
Pack 5 isn't that expensive.
Would be interesting to see how the flow switch is going to be calibrated against the varying flow from the 2 pumps. Especially when their performance changes over time.
Unless some form of hydraulic separation is used. And of course, trvs are a great way over time to regulate flow based on temperature. They never seize or go out of calibration.
But hey ho. What do I know?
Would be interesting to see how the flow switch is going to be calibrated against the varying flow from the 2 pumps. Especially when their performance changes over time.
Unless some form of hydraulic separation is used. And of course, trvs are a great way over time to regulate flow based on temperature. They never seize or go out of calibration.
But hey ho. What do I know?
B
Brightonguy
Is this one of those "seeking expert advice but tell me what I want to hear cause I'm going to do whatever I think is best" threads?
No. It was someone who started with asking for advice and the thread moved along as more knowledge was gained and the ball was batted. A thread which produced two solutions. A result.
DoItAll, because you can't understand, or follow, what was going on in the thread does not mean it has to be locked. Who do you think you are to tell people what to discuss? Just ignore the thread if it is not to your liking. Your positive contribution was minimal.
B
Brightonguy
Pack 5 isn't that expensive.
Would be interesting to see how the flow switch is going to be calibrated against the varying flow from the 2 pumps. Especially when their performance changes over time.
Unless some form of hydraulic separation is used. And of course, trvs are a great way over time to regulate flow based on temperature. They never seize or go out of calibration.
The flow switch is a fixed flow rate to switch in and out. When there is no flow or the flow is barely moving, it switched out. A simple effective on-off device to switch out the burner. The Smart pumps can act against a dead-head when all the rad valves are closed on its CH loop, as they designed to do that. The hydraulic separation will be in three parts. The two CH loops and the primary loop. Each CH loop has a check valve to prevent the primary loop and the other CH loop dragging water backwards. Each CH loop only take off the primary loop what flow it needs.
A quality Honeywell 2-port zone valve is £77.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell...tracking url&gclid=CMac3-GQv7kCFXHMtAodKRoAig
One Wilo Smart pump is £57:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/wilo-smart-pump-domestic-circulating-pump/33590
Using a Smart pump and a flow switch which about £15-20, the cost is no more that the zone valves. Using the Smart pumps will entail not having two room stats, so a saving there in cost and fitting of the wiring. An just two cheap, and simple to understand, time clocks near the combi, another saving. An then thermo rad valves can be fitted all around and most importantly individual temperature control for each room - the prime aim.
But hey ho. What do I know?
Dan, now you know how to do zoning on an Intergas using two Wilo Smart pumps.
And using one externally and a flow switch on a single zone. All simple stuff really. Not complicated when you think of it using ready off the shelf parts. Dan, thanks for the header idea, it brought out the Smart pump two zone way of doing matters. Back to my question. Dan, do you think an auto by-pass valve should be in the primary loop? Preventing a full by-pass will keep the return temperatures low which improves condensing efficiency. So only opening the loop when there is a need appears common sense.
B
Brightonguy
Pack 5 isn't that expensive.
I had a look at that. It is well priced. But you still need a zone valve for each zone and no individual room temperature control as the wireless stat controls the whole zone. Neat though. Dan, thanks for putting me onto that Pack 5. The problem with these sort of controls is than my mother would not use it, and they are too complex for many people to get their heads around. They can understand a simple clock and thermo rad valves much easier.
Multiple pumps are not a new concept to me.
Note the first three picture have a pair of Atmos System boilers.
The last three has a distinct lack of zone valves.
B
Brightonguy
Thanks Dan. Nice pictures. I did a Google on a facebook page had a couple of Intergas boilers on a header and some nice pictures as well. Lots on the web when you look.
Some neat work there. Simple as well.
Dan, I noticed the hepVo trap in one picture - nice traps. I also noticed on the Intergas manual that the condensate and pressure relief valve seem to empty into one point. Does that mean they can both go into one HepVo trap? The manual is not that clear on this point.
Some neat work there. Simple as well.
Dan, I noticed the hepVo trap in one picture - nice traps. I also noticed on the Intergas manual that the condensate and pressure relief valve seem to empty into one point. Does that mean they can both go into one HepVo trap? The manual is not that clear on this point.
This thread is for the benefit of others as well.
Tell me how can ignoring the regs, modifying a boiler etc, several of which is likely illegal, be a benefit to others.
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