Can we claim for damages?

[Paper Spark]

Recently we have had our old boiler, f/e tanks and the hw cylinder removed, and replaced with a WB 30cdi combi, using a corgi registered local firm.

The boiler works as well as expected, but some installation problems that occurred had me wondering if we have any recourse to compensation for damage to our property.

Basically the major problem happened when they were power-flushing the system. As the guy was going around closing and opening rad valves, one of the valve stems popped out of the valve body (his words (excuse )) causing a flood downstairs in the dining room. While they were trying to stop the flow of water nobody was keeping an eye on the power-flush machine, and this then flooded the bedroom carpet.

So now it's panic stations with three of them trying to mop up water both upstairs and down, and me getting buckets under the leaking water coming through the kitchen ceiling. I asked them why it happened, they replied because of cheap cr@ppy valves on the rads and that they weren't going to be held responsible for any damage, because if proper valves had been fitted then the power-flusher wouldn't have overflowed.

The same type of valves have been fitted to other rads on the system over a period of time as I've replaced the rads through leaks or when decorating etc. Not one of the other valves (on three new rads) popped their stems, so I'm wondering if the guy had undone the valve stem instead of opening it, because I couldn't find any part of the old valve to inspect the threads to see if they had been stripped; obviously they'd taken the valve bits with them.

I've held back from paying the remainder of the bill to see if it's worth knocking anything off it.

On another note, they also connected the flow and return pipes the opposite way to original, I'm wondering if this will have an effect on the TRV's that are fitted to a couple of rads.

I could go on about more, but I reckon this post is long enough as it is

 

[Agile]

You have already given some interesting information which indicates that either the installers were a little lacking or you were wanting a cheap job done.

We always insist that we replace ALL radiator valves when fitting a new pressurised boiler and the regulations say that TRVs should be fitted to the radiators. If the customer refuses to pay for new valves then we require a written indemnity to cover any leaks from the old valves when pressurised and any complaints about non compliance with Building Regulations.

Either they just quoted a cheap cost to tempt you or you refused to pay for the valves to be replaced. I dont know which! I suspect the latter because we know you have been dabling with your heating system before instead of employing a professional.

Based on the limited information, my conclusion is that the problems resulted from you wanting a cheap job done. In that case they did their ( not very good ) best but you should not demand any compensation and should pay the installation cost as quoted.

Tony

 

[simond]

I agree with Agile in the main. However, there is not anything in the regs mandating new valves or specifically TRVs in any room other than sleeping areas....when it is a boiler replacement.

If you want to make a scene then ask the contractors for their insurance details. If you want to 'knock something off' their bill then you have to come up with a mutually value for the damage they have done.

Our quotations specifically exclude problems caused by worn or faulty rad valves because this can happen, and when it does, it is not really fair to blame the contractor. However in this instance we would put the matter in the hands of our insurer.

Most customers can see no reason to change their rad valves, and I think Mr P Spark would not have accepted that any of his (manufacturer not disclosed) needed replacement if raised at the quote stage.

I do feel some sympathy for the contractor. I hate working on part-DIY systems, they're often trouble.

 

[Gasguru]

They appear to be pretty incompetent.

For a start before the quote is even produced the valves should have been inspected. Good installers know which valves are likely to start leaking from the spindles, which valve stems are likely to shear etc and advise accordingly. For the majority of properties I visit they require a complete new set of valves before powerflushing commences and upgrade to a sealed system.

Since there were three of them at least one should be guarding the powerflush pump. At the first sign of trouble the machine should have been shut off and isolated - perhaps they were dumping water to the drain and forgot to shut off the cold inlet.

If they are insured (you should have checked before giving the go ahead) they are likely to have a substantial excess. Mine is several hundred pounds despite never making a claim. This may be a reason for not recompensing you for the damage incured.

If they did not advise or pre-warm you about the condition of the valves and possible scenarios then I don't think its the customers fault. Customers should not be expected to know the condition of their system.

Perhaps you would like to tell us exactly what work has been carried out - that would give an idea if its a cheapo job or not.

Reversing the flow and return will not normally cause any problems providing the TRV's allow flow from either way.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I have mixed feelings on this one. Largely I agree with what has been said, and I have sympathies with the installers.

The thing that makes me want to side more withthe OP is that they keft the machine unattended AND switched on.

Also I would be very very hesitant about putting it in a bedroom/any room with a carpet.

Ideally it would go outside or in a kitchen/bathroom with a tiled/lino floor.

 

[Agile]

I agree with Agile in the main. However, there is not anything in the regs mandating new valves or specifically TRVs in any room other than sleeping areas....when it is a boiler replacement.

Thats not my exact understanding!

With a new system each rad MUST have TRVs but with an existing system TRVs SHOULD be fitted to all rads where possible. ( If they are not being fitted to ALL rads then at least those being fitted should be in the bedrooms. )

If a customer will not have TRVs on every rad then I try to get them fitted to the largest rads where they can have more savings.

Tony

 

[mehran]

what ever you do, try to be fair, don't try to screw the installer, blame is not always 100% you or them.

 

[gas4you]

Why was the power flush machine not put in the safety bund? Unless I sit mine outside I always put mine in this, mainly because I operate on my own, but it has saved me once or twice.

I used to moan about it costing me £100, but it has proved worth it.

An old leaking valve is different to a pipe 'popping' out, which if I understand correctly was fitted by the OP so therefore not the installers responsibility, but I feel the upstais situation is.

Old valves tend to drip or dribble I've found rather than give up totally and instantly.

 

[ollski]

If you are needing carpets and ceilings etc replaced I would try your house insurance.

 

[BoxBasher]

The biggest question would be:

Did they warn you about replacing the valves beforehand? Did they explain what could happen?

 

[giblets]

Why was the power flush machine not put in the safety bund? Unless I sit mine outside I always put mine in this, mainly because I operate on my own, but it has saved me once or twice.

I used to moan about it costing me £100, but it has proved worth it.

Agreed - if inside I use a 50gall circular cold water tank - bit cheaper than the £100 bund.

 

[gas4you]

I didn't realise what is was I was buying until it turned up

They got fed up with me moaning about the cost on my Sentinel flushing course

 

[sambotc]

Accident's happen to us all. I wouldn't have though the installer could have done much to cause a valve to gush like that unless they were really cheapo valves to be honest.
On the other hand letting water leak through your ceiling has no excuse so maybe it would seem reasonable too see what damaged has been caused (if any!) in this area and negotiate with the installer about maybe a new ceiling/carpet?

At the end of the day,one of the reasons tradesmen have to charge more for work is because of the fact that insurance premium's are constantly rising because people think they can get new carpets etc out of us all the time .

 

[topgazza]

See a solictor or Citizens Advice

I understand why all the trades here are saying "not our fault guv"....but yes, the OP is entitled to clean or replacement of any damaged property. Any speculation on the quality of the valves should have been discussed before they started. They didn't do that probably because they didn't bother to check...even if their statement was anything other than just "opinion"

They cocked up and didn't have the guts to admit it but blame the poor old OP. Come on guys..this has no legal standing..they are responsible unless they can prove due dilligence but were let down by an unforseen accident...which it probably is from what I can see...or they weren't talking to each other...

Either way household insurance will pick up the bill and its up to them if they want to pursue the plumbers insurance. I would think the OP could pay the bill provided the work is all OK, two different issues. Its no good saying insurance rates are going up for plumbers because mistakes or yes, accidents damage property. Whats the OP supposed to say.."don't worry guys my house is ruined but those solder joints look really neat so its not all bad "

These guys are in business...its not a hobby...with that comes responsibility. I'm sure they just panicked and said the first thing that came into their minds.

 

[sambotc]

I mostly agree with what you are saying but:

Depends on if the house is 'ruined' or if it's just an ideal oppurtunity to get a new carpet down for free.

I'm an employee, although i've had my own bussiness so not completly unfamiliar with all this.

If someone had a brand new axminister which got flooded and shrunk because of someones incompetence then that is most definatly a reason to pursue a claim, but if it's a 15 year old shabby carpet and you get the tinest black drip from removing a radiator is that?

If your house was in a mess after such work then you wouldn't need to come onto a forum and ask wether or not claiming is the right thing to do surely?

It's about being resonable IMO not get all you can from someone else's insurance policy.

What if the tables where turned and a brick fell off your garden wall onto a public footway whilst you were at work. You get back to find someone has tripped over it and sprained there ankle and are now proceeding with legal action? It may sound stupid but this happened to a friend of the family, they claimed £4000 off the house insurance!

Insurance premiums for any purpose go up if you claim everyone know's that, so all these little claims people make are gradually bumping up the rates for everyone, the only winners are the insurance companies themselves!

My 2p

Sam