Central Heating Leading to Divorce!!!!

[portugal99]

OK, here is the situation
Renovated old granite house in Portugal. Because of the cold temperatures here decided to have full central heating AND floor heating.What has been installed is...

600l accumulator
25kw wood burning 'range'
110 elements of radiator
91m2 floor heating.

The problem...? It doesnt work!

The installers blame the manufacturer of the range. the manufacturer of the range blames the installers. Hot water is generated and goes nowhere!
In essence the range can deliver 70l of water heated to 75° every 30 seconds or so. This is SPLIT between the accumulator AND the radiators/floor heating.

The floor heating has NEVER heated up properly with most of it remaining cold throughout days of heating. The radiators HAVE heated up but only when most were shut off.

The pumps, one for floor, one for radiators only run when there is water delivered from the range. Little to no hot water is taken from the accumulator for heating radiators, none for the floor.

Today the installers came back...Fitted TWO thermostats onto the range, what appears to be one for the floor one for radiators?? they made a direct connection from the accumulator to the floor but this only runs when water is delivered from the range, not necessarily to the accumulator!

There is now the situation this evening where the hot water from the range appears to be going nowhere!!!!!!!!! Not even to the accumulator!!!!!!! Through trial and error we have found out quite a lot about how the system works, or rather doesnt work.

We are able to take the accumulator from 40° to around 70° in about 2 hours of feeding water direct into the accumulator. My feeling is if we were able to take this water and put it directly to the radiators and/or floor heating then we would not have a problem. Am I over simplifying things a bit here?

There is an outlet at the top of the accumulator that does appear to feed the radiators but not entirely sure about that as the only pump is on the return from the radiators.

There is a second pump that is on the return of the floor heating that has now been reversed and is now supposed to pump water from the accumulator into the floor but this only runs when water is delivered from the range. Note - When the valve switches to prioritise the accumulator the floor heating shuts off.

I am getting desperate and things are really 'heating' up in the relationship front. all we ever talk about is the damn heating, or lack of it!

HELP!!! ANYONE!!!! Thanks in advance

 

[picasso]

What model/make is your accumulator, I suspect its a thermal store of some type even better if you could put up a photo or two.

 

[htgeng]

what did you pay for? someone to install a woodburner, ufh, store etc as a combined working package? If so it sounds like they didn't design the system correctly. Its unlikely that you will get a satisfactory answer on here as we weren't privy to the original design specs or the layout or the installation or the commissioning.

How much does a divorce cost these days?

 

[Agile]

The specifications YOU have quoted for the range imply it can produce about 1000 kW of heating power!

When a domestic basic boiler is only 24 kW perhaps you will understand the situation you have described is not likely in the real world.

Apart from anything else your range would have to burn about 10 tons of wood per hour. That would probably require about 8 stokers working flat out too.

It would be interesting to know who specified your system so that you know who to sue for incorrect advice.

Toy

 

[muggles]

The specifications YOU have quoted for the range imply it can produce about 1000 kW of heating power!

How do you work that out? He's stated it's 25kw

OP, I would advise a site meeting between yourselves, the range manufacturers and the installers to discuss the issues and the way forward

 

[portugal99]

Thanks for all replies so far!!!

I don't think 25kw is excessive??? Quite the opposite... Maybe it's too low for the system installed.

Anyway, the accumulator is a Solius I have just taken some photos and will upload in a few minutes.

 

[portugal99]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/133d748f01.jpg

Cannot seem to be able to upload onto the site but here is a link to one of the photos.

 

[Agile]

In essence the range can deliver 70l of water heated to 75° every 30 seconds or so.

Thanks in advance

Can neither of you estimate just what power is needed to produce that stated hot water output?

Tony

 

[portugal99]

Hi Tony

Unfortunately not however, the actual water boiler holds 70l of water and when the range is running it does heat and deposit that water in anywhere between 30 seconds and 1 minute depending on wood and settings on the range.

Obviously this water is not stone cold when it enters the range otherwise it would be a fantastic amount of heat to get it to that temperature in such a short period of time.

What I am really looking for is some idea of set up of the system and if it is possible to heat a house like this with the current system or if I need to buy a larger wood burner/range to maintain the heat in the house/accumulator.

 

[DP]

Can neither of you estimate just what power is needed to produce that stated hot water output?

Tony can you elaborate please. It is something I cannot fathom. I dare say, it is education time for me.

 

[portugal99]

Ok, here is a link to a photo with labels to various bits as I believe them to be.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/51fbf064f7.jpg

At a cost of 13,000 Euros, at the moment it seems to be a complete waste of money and would rather have had rads running direct from the range instead of an accumulator with solar panel capacity.

No the solar panels are not installed yet as I want to make sure that the thing actually works before more expense.

 

[Agile]

Hi Tony

Unfortunately not however, the actual water boiler holds 70l of water and when the range is running it does heat and deposit that water in anywhere between 30 seconds and 1 minute depending on wood and settings on the range.

If the range were to heat 70 li of water in 30 seconds, then thats equivalent to 140 li/min.

In your case suppose the incoming water was at 5 degrees then the water is raised by 70 degrees to reach your previously quoted 75 degrees.

Without having to resort to the physics its easier to compare it with the capabilities of a 24 kW combi boiler. That will raise about 9 li//min by just 35 degrees.

If the wood burner is rated at 25 kW then 25 kW is the same power anyhere in the EU. That means it can only produce about 4.5 li/min at a temperature rise of 70 degrees.

So the range actually only gives 4.5 li/min with 25 kW output. That actual output capability may explain why its nowhere near your expectations.

There is also another aspect. Wood burners are rated on the MAXIMUM heat output they can achieve under the BEST conditions. That will be with very dry wood cut into the optimum thickness. The type of wood also has a big effect. See the recent posting here on what kind of wood to burn. The wrong choice can give about half of the maximum heat out.

Tony

 

[htgeng]

At a cost of 13,000 Euros, at the moment it seems to be a complete waste of money and would rather have had rads running direct from the range instead of an accumulator with solar panel capacity.

No the solar panels are not installed yet as I want to make sure that the thing actually works before more expense.

My casual opinion would be, not a hope in hell of working in the way I think you expect. Can you go into detail, what exactly did you ask them to supply and install. What did they tell you it would achieve.

It all looks very pretty but much of the pipework is hidden. Also is pe x good practice for a woodburning stove? I don't think so.

 

[picasso]

If that really is the inlet to the store its too high up to be effective, it looks like the ufh is just drawing cold water from the bottom, why dont they use one of the other tappings further down ?

 

[DP]

The specifications YOU have quoted for the range imply it can produce about 1000 kW of heating power!

Tony can follow your logic regards 70 degree temp rise but how did you calculate 1000kw?