chimneys

[k4tie]

ok, i'm hoping not to sound really stupid here, but here goes . .

When we bought our house we were told that originally there would have been a chimney running through the kitchen up to the bathroom, however at some point in time it had been taken out from the 2 rooms, but remains in the attic and on the roof. The surveyor said that it should have been reinforced, but it was concealed so he had no way of knowing for sure. But everything looked solid and fine.

My worry is now our next door neighbour is knocking out the same chimney on his side. If ours hypothetically wasn't reinforced could next doors be 'holding it up' and therefore ours might come crashing down? or would it definately have fallen down by now if it hadn't been reinforced? How much does a neighbours chimney have an effect on their neighbours? I understand the chimneys are back to back and that they shouldn't be messed with unless you know what you are doing, but what I don't understand is whether a joined chimney can be undermined by anothers? or if like I say, whether next doors chimney is in effect holding our partial chimney up?

Sorry if I sound a bit daft, but if someone could reply it would really put my mind at rest, or not as the case may be!

x

 

[k4tie]

obviously i'm talking about the chimney breast being knocked out here, though i am worried about the chimney structure above.

 

[noseall]

you are right to be worried and your observations are spot on.

by knocking out their side, your neighbours are inadvertently making an already weak chimney structure even weaker.

you need to get this sorted pronto.

it may pay you to work in tandem with your neighbours and remove both sides in one go, repairing masonry and plaster as you go.

 

[k4tie]

OMG! really?!

I thought i was just being a paranoid woman!

So any work a neighbour does on a chimney breast has an effect on the house next door?

If ours is reinforced, would them taking their chimney out their side still have an effect on ours?

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Richard C]

ok, i'm hoping not to sound really stupid here, but here goes . .

When we bought our house we were told that originally there would have been a chimney running through the kitchen up to the bathroom, however at some point in time it had been taken out from the 2 rooms, but remains in the attic and on the roof. The surveyor said that it should have been reinforced, but it was concealed so he had no way of knowing for sure. But everything looked solid and fine.

My worry is now our next door neighbour is knocking out the same chimney on his side. If ours hypothetically wasn't reinforced could next doors be 'holding it up' and therefore ours might come crashing down? or would it definately have fallen down by now if it hadn't been reinforced? How much does a neighbours chimney have an effect on their neighbours? I understand the chimneys are back to back and that they shouldn't be messed with unless you know what you are doing, but what I don't understand is whether a joined chimney can be undermined by anothers? or if like I say, whether next doors chimney is in effect holding our partial chimney up?

Sorry if I sound a bit daft, but if someone could reply it would really put my mind at rest, or not as the case may be!

x

You are very wise to realise that there may be a problem; I would advise you talk to your neighbour BEFORE he knocks out his half of the chimney & jointly take some professional advice as it could well be his half of the chimney that’s maintaining the structural integrity!
status-quoe!

 

[JohnD]

the reinforcement is usually just a pair of big steel brackets holding up the upper part of the chimney on the wall. Bit like a shelf bracket. It relies on the wall being strong enough. If you look in the loft, you ought to be able to see the steel gallows brackets. if you can't see them, they probably aren't fitted.

If the breasts have been taken out on both sides, about two-thirds of the support have been removed, and the chimney above weighs about three or four times as much as the wall ought to. the wall might be even thinner, as sometimes there is just half a brick thickness between the flues.

So it is best to have it taken out and the roof remade over the gap.

You should each pay half the cost.

You would be very distressed if the chimney fell down into the house in a storm.

 

[noseall]

some chimney breasts, located between semi's or terraced houses, can, in the uppermost section, have a lot of corbelling or other weight related brickwork built into the structure.

this means that, it is somewhat reliant upon the weight of the neighbouring stack for support.

if you have adequate gallows brackets or an rsj set up, then i guess you will be safe from falling masonry. but this does not mean that the remaining wall is not extremely weak from the trauma of having both sides of chimney masonry removed.

 

[Richard C]

you are right to be worried and your observations are spot on.

by knocking out their side, your neighbours are inadvertently making an already weak chimney structure even weaker.

you need to get this sorted pronto.

it may pay you to work in tandem with your neighbours and remove both sides in one go, repairing masonry and plaster as you go.

[/quote]

Noseall; I wrote my post off line & then got interrupted before I posted live! We obviously agree but there was no intention to steal your thunder!

 

[k4tie]

ok, John D, when you say wall brackets on the upper part of the chimney, do you mean they will be somewhere at the side of the chimney breast in the attic or underneath the chimney in the attic. Just sent my boyfriend up into the attic to have a look under the chimney between chimney and bathroom ceiling and all he could see was a thick wooden beam, could these brackets be hidden underneath the ceiling (cos bathroom ceiling was and still is wood pannelled). what is an rsj? - what would we be looking for to identify if we have 1?

thank you!

 

[JohnD]

wooden beam

the brackets i am thinking of are triangular in shape, where the upright is bolted to the wall, the top goes under the chimney, and the hypotenuse is a stiffener. If the top is say 600mm deep, the back will be 600mm high. So they would be visible.

50p says your chimney is standing on a piece of wood with no metal brackets.

shaped like these two but made of steel

I would expect then to be under the stub of the chimney in the loft.

 

[marshman]

the brackets I made up for work mate some years ago were 16x16 inch or 400x400mm
made of 2 inch or 50mm box iron so if they were there you would see them easily.
rsj = big steel beam.(very layman term)
get some photos of the chimney and the wood beam get them posted
then you'll soon know if you need to worry or not.

 

[k4tie]

we popped around to the neighbours house and they are not knocking down the chimney (the noise I could hear was them doing something else -was just me jumping to conclusions). Doesn't change the fact ours isn't supported though, which i wouldn't have really thought of if i hadn't heard them doing work. How is the chimney being held up by a wooden beam? and how come the surveyor said that he thought there was no problem?? The structure looks sound and there are no cracks, and we had those really bad storms earlier in the year and they didn't affect it at all. Don't know how i'm going to sleep tonight!

Thanks for all of the advice, any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Can the lack of support be rectified now? if so, how? could we get in trouble with the council, even though it wasn't our doing?

 

[JohnD]

I would hope your council would be co-operative if you are trying to fix it.

I expect your surveyor couldn't see the problem, he would have had to get out of his car

 

[k4tie]

its only a small(ish) chimney if that makes a difference. its not the main chimney. according to our survey it supports just one chimney pot. but i'm guessing a wooden beam still isn't sufficient for that (OMG!)

just dug survey out and exact wording is

'The chimney breast in the kitchen and bathroom above has been removed. Support for the structure above should have been provided but is concealed. I saw no evidence of a problem.'

 

[JohnD]