Complete central heating system upgrade.

[1970jon]

Hi All.

In the process of getting quotes for complete central heating/DHW system.

Existing system is OLD (1980s). Floor standing Kingfisher in kitchen/single pipe to rads/unpumped gravity/Old rads/very innefficient.

1950s house (4 bed/1 bathroom/) Berkshire.
2 young kids me and the wife.

Plan is to go unvented and complety update the whole system.I have had the following cost so far (waiting for two others)



To remove existing boiler hot water cylinder & associated pipe work.
Supply & fit a 30 kilowatt Worcester Bosch room sealed wall mounted condensing system boiler sited in the garage the heating system will be fully sealed & pressurized, making the system more efficient.
Supply & fit a 170 litre indirect unvented hot water cylinder & immersion heater also sited in the garage. The unvented cylinder recommends a 22 mm mains water supply pipe your property is 15 mm whilst the pressure is adequate 4 bar the mains water flow rate is not adequate the price includes a 300 litre accumulator with the cylinder this will enhance the performance of the hot water throughout the property The accumulator is approximately the same size as the cylinder, space for this equipment has to be considered.
The price includes a secondary return on the hot water system this will offer rapid response of hot water at the hot taps through the property, although as discussed the price does not include the secondary circulator as at this point it is not required as the ensuite will not be functional for some time.
Supply & fit appropriately sized radiators in each room eleven in total including the landing & the bathroom, the radiators are isolated & controlled by Drayton thermostatic radiator valves on the flow & drain point lock shield valves on the return this enable simple & clean removal of an individual radiator for decoration behind etc.
There will also be provision left for further radiators as & when the property is modified for bathrooms etc. in positions to be agreed at the time of installation.
The heating will be controlled by a five day two day programmer, two Honeywell zone valves, & the room thermostat will be replaced, the hot water temperature is controlled by a cylinder thermostat.
The existing feed & expansion tank & the main cold water storage tank in the loft will become redundant & will be removed or left in the loft if the larger tank is too large to be removed.
The price includes installing hot & cold services to an agreed point in the main bedroom for the installation of the en suite at a later date.
The price includes supply & fit of a High Flow water softener sited in the garage the drinking tap & outside tap will be left hard.
As agreed we will build the base units housing the sink in the garage.
Upon completion the heating system is chemically flushed, balanced to achieve circulation & an appropriate inhibitor protection is added to the heating.
As a Worcester Bosch approved installation company we can offer you five years manufacturers warranty on your boiler as opposed to the standard two years this is at no extra cost to your self

Total £11053.23 inc VAT.

We plan to be out of the house for 5 days whilst it is done (they are a 3 man team) very well recommended. Do you think this price is in the Ball park as not really sure what this would cost and any questions I should ask. I am going to see a similar set up they have installed locally to get an idea of the size (boiler/cylinder/acc)

I do know that the parts (Boiler/UV cylinder/accumulator/Water soft etc) are probably £3-£4k of that plus all the new pipework etc.

Any how opinions please I know very difficult without knowing all the facts but does £11k sound reasonable?

Thanks

 

[Nixt]

Do you have a technical question?

 

[BigBurner]

Wow! £11K!!! I would have specified a high flow combi that can do a bathroom and an en-suite, and an accumulator. This saves space and cost. There are floor mounted high flow combis like the W-B HighFlow, ACV Heatmaster, Viessmann 333, etc. Wall models like the Vaillant 937 (very big but fine in a garage), Glow Worm Extramax, Alpha CD50, etc. I would zone the CH upstairs and downstairs as well. This saves on bills.

They say the flow is not good enough. Measure it from the kitchen tap with a stop watch and bucket. What is it in litres per minute? You may find the flow is OK for 1.5 bathrooms. Then the accumulator can be dispensed with.

A secondary circulation loop can be incorporated with many combis.

 

[Agile]

Whilst I expect they will do a very good job, the price seems a bit on the high side to me. However getting a cheaper installer might mean a job less well done!

Whilst I agree that an accumulator will give an improvement in performance the volume delivered by the accumulator is limited although with a good static pressure the best result will be obtained in your case.

I would always prefer upgrading the supply pipe if at all possible and unless special aspects apply in your case I would expect it to work out cheaper than an accumulator. There is much more competition in moling now and the price has fallen in London from around £1000 to about £600. Still highly paid for less than a days work though!

The important factor you have not mentioned is how many people and how many bathrooms. If more than 2-3 people then I would recommend a larger unvented cylinder.

Tony

 

[Softus]

Hi All.

In the process of getting quotes for complete central heating/DHW system.

Don't even bother writing anything else.

Oh; you did.

Total £11053.23 inc VAT.
.
.
.
Do you think this price is in the Ball park as not really sure what this would cost...

I'd give them the go-ahead if I were you, as my price would be one million pounds (including VAT).

...and any questions I should ask.

Ask them how they take their tea, and whether they prefer plain or milk chocolate on their digestive biscuits.

 

[gas4you]

Softus, I think you should increase your prices now that fuel has gone up so much

 

[1970jon]

thanks for the responses (some more useful than others?).

Had another quote back today (£9800) very sim spec but no mention of accumulator so don't know if they have checked incoming mains.

Waiting for one more cost back and then decision to make.


Looks like this is going to cost circa £10-£11k so if any of you guys near Maidenhead Berks fancy costing it up etc let me know!

 

[stevebamford]

After going through much the same process I think you'll find some people on this forum won't give you any meaningful answers on costs. Fair enough really as its a DIY forum and I guess its impossible to give an estimate without actually seeing the job.

If its any help we had quotes ranging from £9K to £17K for a new and relocated boiler, new unvented cylinder, all new pipes (mix of copper and plastic) and 14 rads. BG came in at just over £10K

Get a few quotes is best advice. But recommendation counts for a lot.

Good luck

 

[1970jon]

Thanks Steve.

Did you get BG to do it?

Have not really thought about getting them around?

JON.

PS: Was it worth all the expense to go unvented /totally modern system etc.

 

[BigBurner]

After going through much the same process I think you'll find some people on this forum won't give you any meaningful answers on costs.

Know what you want and get them to price up on that. I gave a good advice which would be a cheap installation.

 

[1970jon]

Thanks Big burner.

Why would fitting a hi flow combi and accumlator be THAT much cheaper to install than a system boiler/UV cylinder/Accumulator.

I thought thr Hiflow combis were quite expensive to buy. Also what happens if the combi breaks. How do I get hot water?

I am open to opinions but the 3 Corgis I had round all recommeded system boiler/UV cylinder as opposed (in their opinion) exoensive combis that can go wrong etc. They all said that they had system boiler/UV set upin their own houses!

Thnaks

JON

 

[DP]

If you have room, UV cylinder and heat only boiler is bees knees. If boiler breaks down, water can still be heated electrically. If you can afford it, go for solar panels as well.

Zoning bedrooms and living rooms with programmable roomstats controlling the zone valves will give enhanced fuel saving.

One such system fitted a while ago had three zone (third for UV cylinder) and Megaflow with solar coil for installation of panels when house is extended.

 

[BigBurner]

Thanks Big burner.

Why would fitting a hi flow combi and accumlator be THAT much cheaper to install than a system boiler/UV cylinder/Accumulator.

Hi, You eliminate the very expensive cylinder. The high flow combi can then cope with DHW demand.

I thought thr Hiflow combis were quite expensive to buy. Also what happens if the combi breaks. How do I get hot water?

Quality High flow combis are around £1,000 to £1,500. A quality system boiler is around £1,000 and above. An unvented cylinder to cope with what you need will be way north of £1,000, more like £1,400. Then the labour to fit it. The savings are apparent.

If a combi is down an in-line electric instantaneous heater can be fitted. When off the hot water from the combi just runs through it. It will just do two taps and give a shower. Backup until the combi is up again. Quality combis rarely go wrong.

I am open to opinions but the 3 Corgis I had round all recommeded system boiler/UV cylinder as opposed (in their opinion) exoensive combis that can go wrong etc. They all said that they had system boiler/UV set upin their own houses!

Thnaks

JON

Quality combis do do go wrong more than any other quality boiler. Just because they have a boiler/uv cylinder setup in their own homes doesn't mean it is the best most cost effective option for you. High flow combis have improved greatly over the past few years.

Even the unvented cylinder they recommended it too large. Did any one of them suggest a tank-in-tank ACV? I posted up recently on one of these. It gives full CH & DHW electric backup, as the CH is run from the outer cylinder. See this thread and even a picture
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135553

An ACV doing the CH and DHW, as the recovery rate is so fast using thermal layering, a 200 litre ACV will be equivalent to a 300 litre UV cylinder. The ACVs are well priced.

Did any of them price up on moling in a new water main, instead of an accumulator? Why not? Did any measure your "flow rate"? Measuring the pressure is not the same thing. They sound like these men who only know one way and stick to it, "`cause we always do that guv". Incapable of thinking in any other way.

Back to basics again. If your mains is not good enough then a quote to upgrade is needed and a quote for an accumulator as well. Test the "flow" and "pressure" of the mains. It appears that has not been done properly.

Then consider a quality high flow combi as it will be much cheaper, and save space, than a system boiler/uv cylinder setup, and deliver better results. UV cylinders need pressure reducers on them lowering performance, combis do not. UV cylinders require an annual service charge, did they tell you that? They usually do not.

The people who are quoting you need to know what is on the market to give you the best most cost effective and efficient system.

 

[simond]

Your proposed system using an accumulator is our preferred suggestion, and we too offer prospective customers the opportunity to see the equipment working.

At our demo site we have a Dualstream fitted with an accumulator and a small expansion vessel, so we can offer a 'with and without accumulator' demonstration. It helps people who have read negative and ill informed comments on internet forums (and I meet a surprising number) make up their own minds.

I would go down this route with the contractor. If they can show you an install with it working and you have other known satisfied customers, why would you want to save 10% and possibly buy a pup?

In this industry there can be a World of difference in installation quality standards, CORGI means nothing in this respect.

And whilst highflow combis with accumulators are a good space saving solution, if you have the need, the budget and not forgetting the space to house a cylinder, accumulator and a boiler, nothing will beat a DualStream in a domestic environment.

 

[BigBurner]

Your proposed system using an accumulator is our preferred suggestion,

It seems he hasn't had the flow rate tested yet. It may be OK. He is better spending £600 on a new large bore mains pipe, than an accumulator. A new mains pipe never goes wrong and doesn't take up space.

£600 on a mains pipe upgrade and a quality high flow combi is by far the best most cost effective and efficient system he can get. That is even throwing in an instant electric heater water heater for downtime backup, they can go under the sink they are so small.

And whilst highflow combis with accumulators are a good space saving solution, if you have the need, the budget and not forgetting the space to house a cylinder, accumulator and a boiler, nothing will beat a DualStream in a domestic environment.

If the mains are inadequate, then an accumulator is the way as it beats tanks and pumps. That is a separate issue to DHW delivery. If you are on about the DHW performance, then an UV cylinder can be matched, and beaten, by high flow combis and thermals stores in a domestic environment.

There is also high flow multi point water heaters like the Rinnai and Andrews which are cheaper than unvented cylinders and outperform them. With these multi-points a small smple CH boiler is still needed.