Cooker circuit - socket

[Ray Tay]

A cooker circuit with a cooker switch with one socket on it. The cooker outlet point adjacent.
At the consumer unit, an old Wylex plastic fused job with those Micro circuit breakers that replace the fuse. The cooker circuit has a 32A breaker. 6mm cooker cable. All appears fine.

The kitchen was done up a while back and the cooker outlet box removed and a blank plate fitted, which is now on a blank wall. The socket on the cooker switch is used. 32A appears too big for just a socket.
Should the breaker at the consumer unit be downrated to 16A? Is 32A too big for a radial circuit?
Also, it is possible to fit a socket in the blacking plate and move the cable behind the cooker switch from outlet to inlet daisy chaining the two sockets on one radial circuit. Again would it need to be 16A breaker.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Taylortwocities]

The breaker in the fuebox is there to protect the CABLE of the circuit. So a 32A breaker with 6mm cable is fine providing all of the wiring of the circuit is 6mm.

So you can do what you want, including adding sockets to the circuit, but the additional cable should be in 6mm. If smaller cable is used then the correct size breaker should be used.

move the cable behind the cooker switch from outlet to inlet daisy chaining the two sockets on one radial circuit.

There's no point. Just keep the cooker switch in the on position to enable the additional socket.

 

[stem]

There is no need to change anything.

The 32A mcb is there to protect the cable connected to it. This would be 6mm or 10mm cable used to supply the cooker, so that's fine. Once a plug is inserted, the appliance connected by a smaller cable, will be protected by the plugs internal fuse, so all is well again.

Sockets wired as a 'ring' will be protected by a 32A mcb, anyway, the only difference is, is that the way that they are wired means the current capacity is catered for by two smaller cables, instead of one larger one.

 

[Ray Tay]

Thanks, got it. So in a ring the two cables can handle 32A, one 2.5mm cable by itself cannot.

One trivial thing, a digression. Does a landlord by law need and electrical safety certificate? If so is it just once, when new work is done, or is it every year? I know gas needs an annual check.

 

[stem]

There is only a legal requirement for a gas safety certificate.

 

[Ray Tay]

Thanks, just got it here:

'There is no statutory obligation on landlords or agents to have professional checks carried out on the electrical system or appliances. However, under Common Law and various statutory regulations: The Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, The Housing Act 2004, The Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994, and the Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994, both of which come under the Consumer Protection Act 1987, there is an obligation to ensure that all electrical equipment is safe.'

From Landlordzone web site.
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/content/electrical-safety

No annual check but if new work is added to an installation does it need an inspection cert? On that it is a bit vague.

 

[Ray Tay]

So you can do what you want, including adding sockets to the circuit, but the additional cable should be in 6mm. If smaller cable is used then the correct size breaker should be used.

That has made me think of a heat or smoke alarm. If one is off the 32A ring from say behind a socket, would the cable need to be 2.5mm or just say 1.00mm to the smoke alarm?

EDIT:
thinking about it, a smoke alarm off the ring would need to be off a unswitched spur. Was I right?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No annual check but if new work is added to an installation does it need an inspection cert? On that it is a bit vague.

What isn't vague is your duty of care.

If your questions relate to a property you are renovating to let, please get an electrician.

 

[Taylortwocities]

a smoke alarm off the ring would need to be off a unswitched spur

So 2.5mm to the FCU. For a smoke a 3A fuse so 1mm will be fine. But smoke alarms tend to be in the ceiling, so they are usually fed from a nearby lighting circuit! No FCU needed.

 

[ericmark]

Thanks, got it. So in a ring the two cables can handle 32A, one 2.5mm cable by itself cannot.

One trivial thing, a digression. Does a landlord by law need and electrical safety certificate? If so is it just once, when new work is done, or is it every year? I know gas needs an annual check.

There is only a legal requirement for a gas safety certificate.

It depends on location. Scotland does require regular PIR checks on rented property. In England and Wales if something goes wrong the courts will look as reasonable care. Landlords have been finned for not having the house in a safe condition. This report tells how the landlady was fined, at the time it hit many news systems in this report it states

The court also heard in Thompson’s defence that she had asked a local electrician to check the house before the Whittalls moved in, but he had not had the opportunity because he had been too busy. Plus, the radiator had originally been in another part of the property and was not intended for use in the bathroom.

And it did seem reading all the reports that the lady had done all she could to make the place safe. As always reports differ in one it claimed the tenants knew there was a problem yet still moved in. So it seemed at the time that at least part of the blame should have been down to the tenants actions. Problem is we can't really trust the papers they often leave out bits.

However the point is unless you follow the recommended interval for inspection and testing then likely if some thing goes wrong you will be found guilty. It would seem this happened in around 2007 and the rules changed in 2008. On one report it said the heater belonged to the tenants but can't confirm that. £7,182 is a lot of money it does not say in reports still on the net how long they had waited but from memory at the time I think less than 2 weeks.

The EICR is a get out of jail free card. As long as you do the work listed. As to what the reaction would be if a landlord evicted the tenants because of a poor EICR I don't know. We see adds on TV about insurance finding alternative accommodation but as to if this would include poor inspection reports I don't know. Since Scotland says every 5 years although IET did say 10 years I would say for rented 5 years will be taken as the time period.

 

[Ray Tay]

While on spurs. A few scenarios and questions.
A ring. I was reading that a spur socket on one 2.5mm cable can come off the back of a socket on a ring, but only one socket. Not sure if only one spur off the ring.
I read a 2.5mmm cable can take 27A maximum, so two 13A fuse in the plugtops will protect that single spurred cable. Correct?
Now if two 'single' sockets are on the spur the 13A fuses again protect the cable from over-current. Correct?

So, maximum on a spur off a ring:
a) one double socket (two 13A fuses) or;
b) two single sockets (two 13A fuses)

Correct?

Now for some practical application. Many people want many sockets for appliances that draw little current like computers, chargers, printers, etc. So, a spur off the ring and immediately fit an unswitched FCU with a 13A fuse, then say 3, 4 or 5 sockets off that. This is in effect a radial circuit off a ring. Then the cable cannot draw more than 13A and the 2.5mm cable is protected. It clearly is electrically sound and safe. Is this permissible?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Not sure if only one spur off the ring.

One spur is allowed off any (or all) sockets on the ring. SO if you had 20 scokets on a ring, you could have 20 spurs. But that is bad engineering.

I read a 2.5mmm cable can take 27A maximum, so two 13A fuse in the plugtops will protect that single spurred cable. Correct?

Correct

Now if two 'single' sockets are on the spur the 13A fuses again protect the cable from over-current. Correct?

That does not apply as you are not allowed two single sockets on a spur!

So, maximum on a spur off a ring:
a) one double socket (two 13A fuses) or;
b) two single sockets (two 13A fuses)

Correct?

Correct

Now for some practical application. Many people want many sockets for appliances that draw little current like computers, chargers, printers, etc. So, a spur off the ring and immediately fit an unswitched FSU with a 13A fuse, then say 3, 4 or 5 sockets off that. This is in effect a radial circuit off a ring. Then the cable cannot draw more than 13A and the 2.5mm cable is protected. It clearly is electrically sound and safe. Is this permissible?

Correct.
Just look at the 10-way+ extension panels that you can get for such applications. The fuse in the plug only allows a maximum of 13A to be drawn from the socket.

 

[PBC_1966]

Now if two 'single' sockets are on the spur the 13A fuses again protect the cable from over-current. Correct?

That does not apply as you are not allowed two single sockets on a spur!.

It used to be allowed by the Wiring Regs. - Either one double or two singles, with no restriction on where the two singles may be located in relation to each other. But at the same time the regs. didn't permit more than one FCU on a spur, even if each was feeding appliances drawing only 1 or 2A.

As has been debated here before, the regs. regarding spurs have always been a little illogical.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

One spur is allowed off any (or all) sockets on the ring. SO if you had 20 scokets on a ring, you could have 20 spurs. But that is bad engineering.

It is, but where do the regulations say there's a limit?

That does not apply as you are not allowed two single sockets on a spur!

Where does it say that?

 

[PBC_1966]

As debated a while ago, hasn't this rule now been "demoted" from a regulation to just a suggestion in an appendix?