CU Change - Not Part P Certified Spark

[machineage]

Hi all


Received a quote from a spark to change an old fused CU & VOELCB over to a new unit and upgrade the earthing. However I've found out he isn't Part P certified - but says he can Part P it for an extra £140 on top of the £490 for the job. He's changing it over to a board with all MCBs & RCD - said it would pass at class 1* - and he would issue a certificate (not Part P) on job completion.

Can a spark get a job Part P certified on the hoof like that for an extra charge - which is apparently what it costs him?

 

[AndrewDavie]

There are two ways to be compliant:
1) Be Part P registered and be able to self-certify.
b) Notify the LABC.

£140 sounds about right for LABC notification.

 

[ekmdgrf]

If he quoted you replace a CU then surely that quote should include any notifications that are legally required? If he can issue a certificate but it's not a self-certification of major works certificate (or whatever it's called), then one has to wonder, what exactly it is and what the point of issuing it is?

It all smells a bit fishy to me.

 

[davelx]

If he quoted you replace a CU then surely that quote should include any notifications that are legally required? If he can issue a certificate but it's not a self-certification of major works certificate (or whatever it's called), then one has to wonder, what exactly it is and what the point of issuing it is?

It all smells a bit fishy to me.

The "Major Works Certifcate" is an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) and is required by the wiring regs (BS7671). Any electrician can and should issue one these for a CU change. If he does not then the work does not comply with BS7671.

Certification of notifiable work for compliance with Building Regs (part P and others) is a different matter and a legal requirement, and a different certificate is needed, For that the electrician either goes via his Part P scheme membership (which costs him about £1.50 per job I believe), OR he (you) has to notify LABC in advance and pay their fees. He cannot, at present, legally get a third party to do this certification for him.

It has to be one or other of the above - doing neither is a breach of the Building Regulations and thus illegal.

LABC fees vary. in my borough it's £275 - so £140 is pretty good, IMO.

 

[ericmark]

It is down to the owner to inform LABC although in the main the builder or electrician will do this there are some exceptions for example for the disabled it is often free so fitting for example a disabled kitchen it would be cheaper for the owner to do the notifying. The same would apply where building work and electrical work was going on at the same time.

For a scheme member at around £5 per job not really worth going through LABC direct even if it does save £5 more hassle than it is worth so just issue a compliance certificate.

However in England very few jobs still need notification and to pay to be a scheme member is only worth while if 90% of the jobs one does are domestic where most of the work is industrial it's just not worth the annual fee to become a scheme member.

The problem with the LABC was that the charges are in steps the first being for first £2000 worth of work done and most electrical jobs will fall into that first group so in Wales fitting one socket in a kitchen will have same charge as full rewire. In England this was suppose to be changed and instead of using the LABC one could use other licensed people who were scheme members to issue the certificates. However although the law changed the scheme operators did not and to find anyone other than LABC to check the work is near impossible. Also the LABC were suppose to revue their charges but again seem to be slow complying so still for a simple job the LABC will often charge more for checking the work than the electrician charges for doing the work. Take away material costs and this is likely the case with you.

The LABC to me main a massive error they do not issue permits to work once fees are paid. If they did then no electrician should start the job until he has sight of the permit or is a scheme member. But with no permit if you tell the electrician you have paid the council their fees he has to just take your word for it. However he also knows at the end of the job he must issue an electrical installation certificate for you to forward to the council so not issuing one is the same as saying I knew it was illegal so he will always issue one so he can claim even if not true he was told you had informed the council.

So in real terms often the LABC is not informed both parties claiming they thought the other had done it if asked.

I had one job where the LABC was informed and he never inspected the completed job I just took in the installation certificate and it was rubber stamped. We watch builders from hell and so often the LABC knew what was going on but did nothing to stop it and in theory once you pay them your fee they are responsible for site safety. However although with child care local authorities are taken to court with building control it never seems to happen even where they allowed a whole estate to be build 3 foot too low so houses were flooded before water escaped over the access road as happened in Ruthin so if they can't find such a huge fault what chance is there that they will find a fault in an electrical installation?

In other words they don't do their job so why bother paying them? The answer is of course to provide paperwork when selling house. However still needs a EICR on change of occupant and that is normally accepted instead even though they are not checked by LABC.

So if you never break the speed limit when driving then pay the fees it's a legal requirement in the same way. However with full rewire yes but small jobs in bathroom or consumer unit change ask yourself is it really worth the money just to say what a good boy am I?

 

[pompeygit]

I think the OP has grounds to complain to Trading Standards or whatever they are called now. If you get quotes in to replace a CU (which is notifiable work) it is fair to assume you will be provided with the necessary documentation.
Seriously now who has changed a CU and upon completion said to the customer " by the way if you want a certificate that'll be an extra"?

Fair enough if the spark had made it clear before he started the job that he wasn't registered and that a certificate would cost an extra £140.

Clearly this job cost £630 to complete, and I expect a self certifying spark would have done it cheaper. I'd say the OP has been taken for a ride

 

[machineage]

Thanks for the replies people

Needless to say we didn't take him up on his quote. If I hadn't have raised the question the job would have gone ahead (illegally) and we would have ended up in the s**t no doubt.

Makes you wonder just how much notifiable work does indeed go un-notified because the general public may still be unaware of the legislation.

Have a NICEIC spark coming to quote over Xmas.

 

[flameport]

Makes you wonder just how much notifiable work does indeed go un-notified because the general public may still be unaware of the legislation.

As a likely estimate - the vast majority of it.
No one is prosecuted for non notification either.
It's all a colossal waste of time and money.

Although the per-job notification fee is just a few pounds, there is also the annual fee of £400-£500, which if only a small number of jobs are notified in the year, means each one costs a lot more that £5

 

[mfarrow]

Your electrician was likely quoted half price fees by the LABC by providing qualification cerificates etc. That's the equivalent of an en-suite conversion, where you get two visits..

It doesn't provide any sort of service. You don't even get a visit, they just shove the papers in the drawer and issue a completion cert. Yes an electrician is a skilled competent person, but how is he different to a builder of similar qualification levels and trade memberships. For the similar fee, why not also leave him alone to get on with it?

If the inspectors are happy to learn a few published Approved Documents (albeit badly at times) then why not do the same for BS 7671 and a few GN books? Then trades might be treated equally.

It's not your electrician who needs reporting to trading standards, it's the council"s own body.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Needless to say we didn't take him up on his quote. If I hadn't have raised the question the job would have gone ahead (illegally) and we would have ended up in the s**t no doubt.

Sounds like that was a possibility, just a shame this type of tradesperson is allowed to continue to get away with misleading quotes and then extortionate procedures.

Makes you wonder just how much notifiable work does indeed go un-notified because the general public may still be unaware of the legislation.

A hell of alot and even though Part P notification, has been kicking around for near on 10 years now, it seems domestic residence are still not very clued up on what can and can't done in their property with regards to this.

Have a NICEIC spark coming to quote over Xmas.

It's worth looking here for genuinely registered electricians.
http://www.competentperson.co.uk/
That does not mean they are all nice or the cream of the trade, so you still need to be canny when selecting the person you wish to complete the work to a satisfactory level. I would suggest 3 quotes and ask for evidence of work and testimonies.

 

[machineage]

The opinions on here just goes to show me what an absolute shambles this legislation is... Just how is an uninformed member of the public expected to fair? I am fairly clued up - hence my questioning the credentials. All of my family & immediate friends hadn't a clue what Part P was when I mentioned it to them. All of the sheds sell T/E & CU's - which may be their first port of call if they were to undertake their own work - supervised or not.

So tell me - with all of the work that has (undoubtedly) gone ahead un-notified & un-(Part P)certified - where does that leave the homeowner? Have they committed a criminal offence - has the spark committed a criminal offence? What about when they sell their house - and there must have been thousands that haven't been able to present the relevant certification to the solicitors when requested to do so? Do they take out some kind of indemnity?

The whole thing comes across to me as a complete joke.

 

[flameport]

where does that leave the homeowner? Have they committed a criminal offence - has the spark committed a criminal offence?

Yes - the offence is not notifying, and it's the homeowner's responsibility. However no one has ever been prosecuted for that on it's own, and probably never will be.

The only prosecutions / convictions occurred in a tiny number of cases where the work done was so ridiculously dangerous and unsafe that people were injured or killed as a result. The non-notification part was included with it just because it could be.

What about when they sell their house - and there must have been thousands that haven't been able to present the relevant certification to the solicitors when requested to do so? Do they take out some kind of indemnity?

When selling the property there is usually some sort of questionnaire filled in by the vendor, one of the questions is 'has any electrical work been done since year X.'
If the answer is yes, then there is another question about documents and whatever being available. Usually the answer is no / do not know / could not care, and that's as far as it goes.

If the buyer was bothered and there was evidence of recent notifiable work being done, they might pursue it further, but it is unlikely.
Even if they did, approval can be sought after the event anyway (regularisation), which basically involves paying a wedge of money to building control to get a piece of paper stating the work complied with building regs - which for electrical installations means that 'Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.'

The other issue is that since last April, virtually nothing is notifiable anyway. Consumer units, new circuits and items within the zones of bathrooms are the only things.

The new circuits part is a shambles, since even a single socket outlet connected to a consumer unit could be extended as far as you want - if the single socket was already there, it's not a new circuit. Plus who is to say whether a certain circuit existed there already or not?

Bathrooms are equally useless, since almost nothing is fitted within the zones. Lighting is usually too high to be within, extractors are often fitted into the ceiling or loft space above, connections for towel rails and illuminated mirrors are usually outside the zones (60cm or more from the bath), and that really only leaves electric showers - replacement of which is not notifiable either, and a totally new one would involve a new circuit anyway.

The whole thing comes across to me as a complete joke.

That's about it, particularly when you see mess like this consumer unit, recently installed by persons unknown:

Untitled

• flameport
• 26 Dec 2013
• 1

Bad photo from a mobile phone, but fairly obvious none of this was tested or installed in accordance with any regulations, and it certainly wasn't notified. There were no documents, labelling or anything else. It's actually worse than the rewireable fusebox that was there previously.

For those who want to know, the ratings of the breakers from left to right are 6A, 40A, 2 module RCD, 16A, 16A, 32A, 32A, 2 module RCD, 2 module switch.
It has many things wrong with it.

 

[aesmith]

... What about when they sell their house - and there must have been thousands that haven't been able to present the relevant certification to the solicitors when requested to do so?

Is that commonplace in England, requiring electrical certificates when buying a house? Over the years I've bought four houses, and sold twice, and have never been asked to produce such a report when selling, never been offered one when buying either.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The opinions on here just goes to show me what an absolute shambles this legislation is... Just how is an uninformed member of the public expected to fair?

By knowing what the law is, just as with any other areas where there are laws associated with what they are doing.

All of my family & immediate friends hadn't a clue what Part P was when I mentioned it to them.

So?

All of the sheds sell T/E & CU's - which may be their first port of call if they were to undertake their own work - supervised or not.

Venture into the rest of the store and you'll find they sell everything you need to build a complete house. There's no more excuse for thinking that because they sell T/E & CUs there can't be any constraints on how you use them than there is for thinking that because they sell bricks, sand, cement, timber etc it must be OK to build a house without Planning Permission or Building Regulations approval.

So tell me - with all of the work that has (undoubtedly) gone ahead un-notified & un-(Part P)certified - where does that leave the homeowner? Have they committed a criminal offence

No.

has the spark committed a criminal offence?

Yes.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes - the offence is not notifying, and it's the homeowner's responsibility.

No it isn't - it is the responsibility of the person doing the work, not ordering it.