Do I need a party wall agreement?

[Marth39]

Am I right in thinking I need a party wall agreement with my downstairs neighbours?

I live in the upper flat (1st floor) of a 1890s purpose built flat.

I will be removing a chimney breast in the kitchen (this doesn't affect neighbours to either side of me) This chimney breast carrys on below and they still have theirs in their kitchen.

I will also be removing a wall in the bathroom to open it up, it's about a metre wide.

I will be submitting the plans to Building control, my freeholder, and informing my lender and insurance company.

Have I missed anything? Will my insurance premiums be increased and do I need ot inform both my building and contents insurers?

Any advice on this very gratefully received.

 

[noseall]

I will be removing a chimney breast in the kitchen (this doesn't affect neighbours to either side of me) This chimney breast carrys on below and they still have theirs in their kitchen.

I take it the chimney stack, i.e. all the masonry above has been removed and the roof made good? I am guessing yours is the flat directly beneath the roof?

 

[Marth39]

Mine is the flat directly under the roof. The chimney on top of the roof needs to stay due to preserving the look of the area, therefore the stack in the loft will be supported by a steel.

My downstairs neighbours considered removing their chimney breast a few years ago but didn't proceed as they wanted the then owner of my flat to do the same but she didn't want to. They may remove theirs at some point but I'm guessing not for a good few yrs.

 

[noseall]

So what happens if say some new owners of the flat below would like to install a wood burner or a real fire?

How are you going to support the steel in the loft?

 

[Marth39]

So what happens if say some new owners of the flat below would like to install a wood burner or a real fire?

How are you going to support the steel in the loft?

It's highly unlikely given that the kitchen is 8' by 8' and the the chimney butts up against the wall where the kitchen door is but if they do then I suppose they won't be able to if the breast is gone, and definitely won't be able to if the current owners get theirs removed. Regarding the steel, I don't know, but I'm sure the builders will.

 

[Nickam]

I think it's a Party Structure Notice you need to serve on the people below. You haven't mentioned whether you have anyone next door either. If so, then you'll need to serve them a Party Wall Notice.

 

[jeds]

If your neighbour is in agreement with the work you can just put it in writing between you and no party wall award is necesary. You should obviously make sure the agreement covers the legal situation as well - i.e. with regards general management responsibility of the building and common parts etc.

If your neighbour disagrees you would need to serve notice but I don't really see how this could come about because without their agreement you couldn't legally proceed anyway.

 

[Marth39]

I think it's a Party Structure Notice you need to serve on the people below. You haven't mentioned whether you have anyone next door either. If so, then you'll need to serve them a Party Wall Notice.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I'm mid terrace but didn't think they would be affected as the wall is on an external wall not connected to either next door neighbours, and the kitchen chimney breast is in the middle of the flat?

 

[Marth39]

If your neighbour is in agreement with the work you can just put it in writing between you and no party wall award is necesary. You should obviously make sure the agreement covers the legal situation as well - i.e. with regards general management responsibility of the building and common parts etc.

If your neighbour disagrees you would need to serve notice but I don't really see how this could come about because without their agreement you couldn't legally proceed anyway.

Hi, thanks for that, that's really helpful. We share responsibility for the roof and the outside common areas I think according to my lease. Should I include in writing that my insurance companies have been notified etc?

 

[jeds]

I don't think informing your insurance company is that critical. The important thing is that the removal of the chimney is agreed with everybody that has an interest. By that I mean in terms of it being part of the shared ownership regardless of any party wall agreement. Once that is settled then it follows that everybody is in agreement with the works being carried out and as long as that is put in writing between you then a party wall award is not needed. Inform the insurance company if you like but I don't think they'll really be that interested.

 

[noseall]

Will future owners of the flat below not have a right to have the chimney re-instated should they want to?

Or will decisions made now be irreversible?

 

[Marth39]

Will future owners of the flat below not have a right to have the chimney re-instated should they want to?

Or will decisions made now be irreversible?

I don't know. I imagine that it will have to be irreverable when it is taken out. I can only think anyone buying will feel that the previous owner has done them a favour seeing as it cuts into an already very small kitchen.

What does happen in these circs? Do we have to bear in mind future intentions? I know that most of this street and surrounding areas have taken their's out, as I viewed loads of them when looking to buy and have talked to neighbours.

Is this something building control will flag up as a legal right?

 

[noseall]

The only reason i mentioned it was due to the growing rise in popularity of wood/coal burning stoves.

There are trillions of chimneys being opened up at present and demand is pretty high for this kind of thing......

 

[Marth39]

The only reason i mentioned it was due to the growing rise in popularity of wood/coal burning stoves.

There are trillions of chimneys being opened up at present and demand is pretty high for this kind of thing......

Yes I see that. All the other rooms still have the chimney breasts intact and I wouldn't take them out.

The chimney breast in the kitchen is a nice but quirky feature seeing as the room is so tiny and the opening is right up against the wall that sits 90 degrees to it.

It basically rules out one whole wall for units or worktops. It has a hole bashed in it for the washing machine but has lovely hearth tiles which I will be leaving in place.

 

[jeds]

I think there are two ways to look at this. On the one hand the neighbour below is losing the future option of having an open fireplace. On the other it gives them the opportunity to remove their chimney breast at a later date, which is quite a common thing to do in flats to gain more space.

Anyhow, it is precisely for this reason that I say it's essential you get legal agreement with interested parties. If you were to just proceed you might find yourself having to reinstate it later when the neighbour decides to have an open fire and discovers that you've removed the chimney (which is a common part) without authorisation.