Do I need a plumber or an electrician? (Unvented work)

[Razor900]

That's a very sad story Shambo. But it does highlight our point exactly.

I've reported Bernard's posts in this thread to admin. I don't suppose it'll do any good though unless we all do it

 

[Razor900]

And IIRC water expands around 1600 times when it turns to steal which is why UV cylinders have tighter controls than gas works.

They are very safe if installed correctly though.

 

[shambolic]

Yep by the time we were called out to investigate the boiler, the installer had been out and changed the hot water 2 port.
Now even if this was wired through the cyl star and overheat properly this young boy would still have been seriously injured due to someone manually opening valve to provide hot water whenever heating was on.
We had no way of knowing this but our boiler would quite happily provide 80deg if stat turned up and heating was on.
A long winded way of saying shut up Bernard.

 

[Dan Robinson]

A long winded way of saying shut up Bernard.

He'll either shrink away for a few days, or come back trying to justify his ridiculous advice by blaming it on a high risk appliance being poorly maintained/installed; and that he is soooooo much more imaginative than us trained professionals who are unable to think outside the box.

Problem is Bernard. We can think outside the box, we can also think of the consequences. The fact that things are done a certain way is to make tragedies like this thankfully rare.

 

[PullerGas]

That's a very sad story Shambo. But it does highlight our point exactly.

I've reported Bernard's posts in this thread to admin. I don't suppose it'll do any good though unless we all do it

Very sad as you say Razor.

Bernard is a very dangerous individual. I've pointed this out several times, but for whatever reason my posts are deleted & he still leads a charmed, all be it dangerous, life here.

My understanding was that any Rayburn Range type appliance was not to be connected to an unvented cylinder. Reason being residual heat in the appliance.

 

[Dan Robinson]

We're dealing with a man that asks about condensate plumes in the electrical forum


That's alternative thinking for you .

 

[bernardgreen]

Was in the winter and boiler stat set to 80deg and either the 2 port for hot water was jammed in manual (after possible synchron motor failure), or wrong wiring to zone valve/cyl stat.
Full H&S investigation as it was new build site.
Lucky for our side the boiler will only do what it is told by external controls.

If water coming put of taps at 80°C is dangerous then the safety ( safety not control ) devices should be set to open dump valves at a temperature that is considered to be the maximum safe temperature.

Read this Bernie http://www.megaflo-unvented.co.uk/megaflo-description.php

Pressurised Hot Water
In traditional open vented systems, as the water is heated, it simply expands into the water tank in the loft. If there's a fault with the thermostat, the water will continue heating and may eventually reach 100°C, and boil. The boiling water will turn to steam and evaporate into the atmosphere.

With an unvented system, the water is typically held under pressure at 3 bar. If the thermostat fails, and the water continues heating, it could reach 100°C. In a vented system the water would boil and evaporate, but remain at 100°C.
With an unvented system, at say 3 bar pressure, the boiling point of water would be 134°C, so the pressure and temperature will continue to increase. At above 100°C, the water would instantly flash into steam when released into normal atmospheric pressure, for example if opening a tap!. This can be extremely dangerous to both people and anything in the surrounding area. It is critical that unvented systems are installed with the correct safety controls to ensure the water never reaches boiling point, and if the temperature or pressure exceeds safe predetermined limits, the safety valves will release to rapidly reduce the temperature and/or pressure.

At least the dangers are mentioned but are they passed on to the customer by the G3 who is recommending replacing a vented cylinder with an unvented cylinder ?

As I see it the advice I give is that customers should ask a few more questions when being told an unvented cylinder is the best option for them and their hot water system.

If you don't like that advice being given to customers then maybe it is you that need to give more information to people about the pros and serious cons of unvented cylinders,

 

[dilalio]

BG: what makes you think that we don't give our customers such warning and advice?

It's exactly the same as the warnings/advice we give them about their boiler...

"Sir/madam, we have installed/repaired your system and tested it to make sure it is safe and performing as it should.

This is how the "user" controls work for your own comfort settings - please adjust accordingly over the coming weeks to satisfy your own requirements.

Remember to have this and this checked and serviced on an annual basis; here's my number, put it, and today's date, in your diary/calendar/phone for a reminder in 12 months time.

If, within that period, you have any concerns regarding the performance or operation of the system(s) and believe they may be defective in some way; please do not start tinkering with them or posting on forums which may then tempt you to tinker... Call me! If I am unavailable, I will put you in touch with someone who is!"

 

[Razor900]

No Bernie you were stating that the wiring was irrelevant and it was the mechanical safety devices that counted. If the professionals on here had to spend less time dealing with the likes of you perhaps the posters would find it easier to find advice.

You can try to put whatever spin on it you like but it's obvious to anyone reading this thread that you are giving advice on subjects you're ignorant of and that the admin on this site doesn't give a monkeys about it.

 

[bernardgreen]

No Bernie you were stating that the wiring was irrelevant

If it can be read as stating that then I apologise for not using words that made my opinion clear.

The control wiring / components should control the boiler / cylinder system so that it can only operate in a safe way. The safety system devices should operate if the control system allows ( or instructs ) the boiler to operate in an unsafe way.

The safety system can be seen as making the quality and function of the control wiring irrelevant if the safety system will ensure safety no matter what the wiring does the boiler and items connected to it remain in a safe condition. The boiler may not operate but that is the ultimate safe state. ( other than people in the house becoming hypothermic )

 

[Dan Robinson]

Jesus.

 

[bernardgreen]

BG: what makes you think that we don't give our customers such warning and advice?

You probably do give the necessary advice. But do all installers provide it ? Do the owners follow it ? Do they pass it on when they sell the house ?

Experience over the years. Mine and that of G3 and other qualified people on a closed mailing list who have attended to systems where the owner was ignorant of the fact that there were safety devices that needed to be inspected annually.

 

[bernardgreen]

Jesus.

Sorry Dan but my brother is out servicing an old boiler.

 

[Nozzle]

My understanding was that any Rayburn Range type appliance was not to be connected to an unvented cylinder. Reason being residual heat in the appliance.

Yikes!!! I'll get in touch with the Rayburn people and seek an answer on this, pronto. It's already connected, has been for a few years now, I do hope nothing has to be ripped out.

Nozzle

 

[dilalio]

You probably do give the necessary advice. But do all installers provide it ? Do the owners follow it ? Do they pass it on when they sell the house ?

Caveat emptor mate!
In managed properties these things are all locked away and are subject to PPM's but an Englishman can blow himself to kingdom come in his own castle!
Picture the poster... Safety is YOUR responsibility!