Duraflex frames have intrusive weld in the corners

[piper64]

Just at the stage of putting the glass in the frames and notice that the welds in the corners are not filed back, meaning the glass is held off the qseal and the white weld looks shoddy in each corner.

If I attempt to level the welds, I risk damaging the qseal. In some corners the qseal is not joined and in one place, it has been ripped back already.

Pix attached. //www.diynot.com/network/piper64/albums/

Where the transom is, the reverse butt weld is also proud of the frame surface, which is 'just how they are, but can be rubbed down if required'.

Overall the supplier of these windows and doors has provided a shoddy product, however this has been explained away as me buying the product 'trade'. This was news to me, as I had no idea I was buying what are effectively unfinished products.

 

[crank39]

welds in the corners are not filed back, meaning the glass is held off the qseal and the white weld looks shoddy in each corner.

I always found this when repairing a duraflex frame, i just decided it was a poor quality design by already having the Q-lon in place when welding

Where the transom is, the reverse butt weld is also proud of the frame surface, which is 'just how they are, but can be rubbed down if required'.

I'd like to see a picture of this but i can already imagine the state of it, i've seen some right shocking reverse butt welds, they may of found the duraflex profile is difficult to polish in all the nooks so were left sliced which is fine, it just means it has to be a neat slice

Overall the supplier of these windows and doors has provided a shoddy product, however this has been explained away as me buying the product 'trade'. This was news to me, as I had no idea I was buying what are effectively unfinished products.

News to me also, trade or not, for all the supplier knows if you were trade then your customer might reject that frame, as it happens he knows your not and has fobbed you off

 

[piper64]

hi crank

If the seals are in place prior to welding, that would explain it. I guess that I could shave some off, so it's not as noticable. I'll have to reglue the seal that's not currently joined too.

I'll add some pix of the butt weld, but I have scoured the web and have seen some like it. Of course an advertisment photo is tidied up.

Buying 'trade' is a fob, I know. They maintain that if it was being fitted, the fitter would do the tidying of the welds etc. They also said that the bow in the windows would be covered by a coupling cover strip, so I wouldn't have seen it.

On a side note, they gave me self fixing spax bolts to fit the door and window frames to the walls. As these do not have a sleeve, how does that affect any likely expansion? The bolt thread is anchored to the steel reinforcement as well as the wall, so they are fixed with no lateral movement.
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[crank39]

Correct, spax fixings don't allow for expansion but its probably the most commonly used fixing in the pvc game now, years ago it used to be the fischer window fixing which allowed for expansion, then a bit later on it was frame anchors, some called them smack splits, you just hammered the plug and screw straight in then gave the screw half a turn to nip it up

 

[piper64]

A lot of fuss is made about expansion gaps, but if this is how the trade do it, then it must be OK?

I have a side door that was fixed using spax, no issues a year later. Should I make the holes in the frames that I'm doing now larger or just leave it all alone?

 

[crank39]

Either or, entirely your choice, spax have been around for a while now and only work with the correct sized sds bit and you could put your mortgage on it that the fitters won't pre drill with a slightly larger bit, oh the joys of the sds drill......one bit drills all

 

[piper64]

An SDS bit was given to me as well, suitable for the bolts.

Expansion is 0.7mm per meter on a 10 degree temperature rise, apparently.

As it's not just one window frame, but is in fact a frame - a door - a frame - a corner post and another frame all joined together, where would it expand? There are no gaps between the frames, just where they meet the walls.

 

[crank39]

Truth is it can't go anywhere

 

[Click4]

A lot of fuss is made about expansion gaps, but if this is how the trade do it, then it must be OK?

I have a side door that was fixed using spax, no issues a year later. Should I make the holes in the frames that I'm doing now larger or just leave it all alone?

Just because the trade "do things" doesnt make it correct.

as said in a previous thread about FENSA, by somebody else most only do quick installation training and install with a botch and run attitude. I have come accross brand new installations by FENSA installers with the frame drains siliconed over, and gaps in doors big enough to see daylight.

expansion gap is required, not just for expansion as expansion is only more of an issue on darker coloured frames but it also is vital for maintaining the energy rating of the frame, a plastic frame directly against a cold wall? What happens?

Wall is cold, it pulls heat out of the frame, but inside the temperature is higher than outside.. so heat is then drawn from the inside of your room back into the frame, where the wall will then go on to remove that heat. This is a bigger problem on the alluminium frames, in the middle of winter if you touch an alluminium frame... you will notice its freezing so you can see how that will absorb heat from your room.

But with an expansion / thermal break or gap... it means the frame is thermally separated from the wall and there is a lesser heat transfer from the frame to the wall... the expansion gap is also then supposed to be filled with an expanding foam for its insulation and draft proofing properties.

Cavity closers should also be used where possible, as it seals off the cavity drafts and has a built in Damp proof course.

Both of the above though... cavity closers and foam around the frame though are not commonly done by the trade.. mainly because they want to keep costs down and also work to a tight time frame.. if you was going to put foam around every window, then silicone on outside on top, and caulking inside on top.. and mess about with the cavity closers not only would they have the added costs of foam and closers but the amount of time it would take extra would mean spending longer on the premesis.

but its the emphasis on thermally efficient windows and insulation which is why like id imagine you have just done to fit your frames, it requires building control notification or FENSA installation because they want to ensure the installation is draft proof, thermally efficient and a minimum of C rated windows being used.

Just unfortunately because FENSA installers can write their own certificates, they can get away with murder.

 

[crank39]

Click, you seem to only have one DEFAULT reply to all double glazing questions, i think we've all got the picture on how YOU fit YOUR frames, time to give it a rest i think and just answer the query posted

 

[piper64]

Click4, there is a gap, the frames are not against the walls. My query was more about what happens if the gap is fixed, because of the spax bolts.

I realised this morning that there are non compressable packers where the bolts are fitted anyway. The frame can't move regardless of what bolts I use.


I could use foam to thermally fill the gaps, but have heard about how the foam can expand too much, bowing the frames or in one case, popping the window out.

It's a porch, so not as much of an issue as a living space.

 

[piper64]

Where the transom is, the reverse butt weld is also proud of the frame surface, which is 'just how they are, but can be rubbed down if required'.

I'd like to see a picture of this but i can already imagine the state of it, i've seen some right shocking reverse butt welds, they may of found the duraflex profile is difficult to polish in all the nooks so were left sliced which is fine, it just means it has to be a neat slice

crank39
Pic of the butt welds. This is where two of the windows meet on a corner, but the welds are the same inside and out on each transom. View media item 51892Ignore the bad fit of the trim and the dirt, the glass wasn't in when I took the pic.

 

[crank39]

Thats actually very neat, you previously said the weld was proud of the frame surface, if you mean the short bit that runs to the frame edge then thats normal to leave that, the 2 other mitred joints have been grooved, my survey sheets specify knifed or grooved welds, your supplier clearly grooves as standard but leaves the little stubby bit as knifed which is normal

Do you have any top openers next to a fixed in any of your windows, its this weld where the transom joins the mullion that can look a pigs ear, especially if its just knifed and not sanded and polished out

 

[piper64]

Thats actually very neat, you previously said the weld was proud of the frame surface, if you mean the short bit that runs to the frame edge then thats normal to leave that, the 2 other mitred joints have been grooved, my survey sheets specify knifed or grooved welds, your supplier clearly grooves as standard but leaves the little stubby bit as knifed which is normal

Do you have any top openers next to a fixed in any of your windows, its this weld where the transom joins the mullion that can look a pigs ear, especially if its just knifed and not sanded and polished out

Indeed it is the short weld that goes from the v to the frame edge I'm talking about, but if it seems neat to you and it's normal for it to be there, then ok. The supplier did show me that it can be sanded out somewhat and he used a blue fluid as well, but he said it wasn't done these days due to H+S.

If I wanted to remove these welds is it possible or sensible to finely sand uPVC without issues later?

The windows are all top openers, not next to a fixed window, just as well.

 

[crank39]

Welds can be sanded out and then the area polished back up, typically you'd start off with 80 grit wet n dry to sand the bulk out then 120, 240, 400, 600, 800, 1000 then 1200 then if needed a bit of t cut and then car polish.

The chemical your supplier reffered to was probably 'scratch remover ', highly carcinogenic and highly banned now I believe, I used to use it to remove small dings and scratches, dab it on with cotton wool and it would dissolve away the top layer of PVC