Economy 7 metering query

[EFLImpudence]

Oh. They'll find a way.

 

[stillp]

Why should it be fair? The present system isn't, e.g. for people who own more than one car, people who live in remote areas and depend on their car, etc.

 

[JohnW2]

Why should it be fair?

Apologies - I'm just a person who rather likes the idea of fairness!

The present system isn't, e.g. for people who own more than one car, people who live in remote areas and depend on their car, etc.

Agreed, but that doesn't alter the fact that I would prefer it to be fair - both 'the present system' and whatever happens in the future.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

I'm just a person who rather likes the idea of fairness!

Me too, but life isn't!

 

[JohnW2]

Me too, but life isn't!

A lot of things in life aren't fair. However, if there are to be changes to a system which currently is not fair, that theoretically presents an opportunity to move things a bit in the 'fair' (or, at least, fairer) direction!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

That's true but EV declaration could be a requirement on HMRC returns.

It could, although that would only create 'fairness' if the car-related taxes were collected entirely through income tax. It would not help if some were collected by hiking up rates of indirect taxation (VAT, other excise duties etc.).

Government don't seem too keen on collecting money for specific purposes via general taxation. For donkeys' years it has been observed that the proportion of households with TV licences is so high that it would make sense (removing all the costs associated with administering and policing 'licensing') if it the money simply obtained through general taxation. However, successive governments appear to have have rejected that idea.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

It could, although that would only create 'fairness' if the car-related taxes were collected entirely through income tax. It would not help if some were collected by hiking up rates of indirect taxation (VAT, other excise duties etc.).

Well, yes but my thoughts are that the amount of money has to and will be raised, with or without reference to EVs or fairness.

Labour may raise it through income tax 'fairly'; the Conservatives would not - possibly even the reverse.[/QUOTE]

 

[EFLImpudence]

I HAVE IT.

You will have a card which you can top-up without which the car will not go.
Larger vehicles use it quicker than small ones.

or.

The car is connected to the internet and debits your account every mile or number of miles.
Larger ones debit more than small ones.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Or.

Everybody gets a card each year pre-loaded with a certain balance. There is a market for those who do not need all (or any) of their balance to sell it to those who want more.


The drive for EVs is entirely for emissions reasons - CO2 because of global warming, nitrous oxides and microscopic particles etc for health reasons.

So a tax which is based on fuel consumption is perfectly progressive. If everybody had a "carbon allowance", set at a level (at least initially) which would allow a "reasonable" lifestyle (I am fully aware of the devil in the detail here, but it's the principle with which I am concerned), then there would be people who would not be able to use their allowance, and there would be people who would want to use more. Money would flow directly from the richest to the poorest.

 

[JohnW2]

I HAVE IT. You will have a card which you can top-up without which the car will not go. Larger vehicles use it quicker than small ones. .... or. ... The car is connected to the internet and debits your account every mile or number of miles. Larger ones debit more than small ones.

Well, yes. but those are just variations on the theme of the GPS-based system previously mentioned.

Do I take it that you are talking about those methods of collecting just "fuel excise duty", and that the perceived evils of the smart meter would not treat home EV charging and differently from any other electricity consumption?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Labour may raise it through income tax 'fairly'; the Conservatives would not - possibly even the reverse.

There obviously scope for debate about what constitutes "fairly".

In the present context, a system which collected vehicle-related taxes on the basis of income, regardless of the amount (if any) of usage of a vehicle (or vehicles) could clearly be unfair unless a way could be found to eliminate that anomaly. Asking whether or not one owned a car on a Tax Return would be straightforward enough, but when one got into questions about mileage, types of journey etc. etc., the bureaucracy (and 'policing') could well be prohibitive.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Well, yes. but those are just variations on the theme of the GPS-based system previously mentioned.

Yes, but no infrastructure necessary.

Do I take it that you are talking about those methods of collecting just "fuel excise duty",

It would be a direct replacement for fuel duty, wouldn't it?

and that the perceived evils of the smart meter would not treat home EV charging and differently from any other electricity consumption?

There would be no need, would there? but - because of demand it won't be at a cheaper rate.

 

[EFLImpudence]

There obviously scope for debate about what constitutes "fairly".

Not unfairly.

Asking whether or not one owned a car on a Tax Return would be straightforward enough, but when one got into questions about mileage, types of journey etc. etc., the bureaucracy (and 'policing') could well be prohibitive.

That was just in reply to your question "What about those who don't own a car?".

All moot now because of my foolproof system.

What number is the patent office?

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, but no infrastructure necessary.

I suppose that depends upon what you mean by 'infrastructure'. Both your proposals would require the vehicle to be fitted with an approved, tamper-proof and regularly calibrated means of 'metering' the mileage. Your 'Internet' suggestion would require all vehicles to be installed with a means of connecting to the internet, would require the infrastructure to be present to ensure that a vehicle on any part of any road anywhere in the country could get access to the internet. The resultant amount of internet bandwidth used would be very far from trivial, and a very serious bit of IT kit would have to exist (and be maintained) at some central location.

Do I take it that you are talking about those methods of collecting just "fuel excise duty"

It would be a direct replacement for fuel duty, wouldn't it?

You seem to have misunderstood my question. Yes, there would be some 'tax' which was a direct replacement for fuel excise duty. However, the crucial word in my question was "just" - i.e., I was asking you to confirm that your system would just be collecting that 'tax', and not also the cost of the electricity used for charging (per previous exchanges in this thread).

There would be no need, would there?

Well, you tell me! People seem to be concerned that, quite apart from the issue of collecting taxes for HMG (an issue that only arose, at least explicitly, quite a way into this thread), smart meters might 'control' or otherwise interfere with use of their home EV charging (and goodness knows what else).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I am trying to get my head around programming the car as to when to charge rather than the charging supply? Either way there is a problem unless the supply is large enough to fully charge the car in seven hours. The car does not know what time the house supply goes to cheap rate so car can't select charging time, and house will not know if car can be charged within seven hours so house can't select time.

It would need some hand shaking system, I think there is a hand shaking system built in of sorts to detect the size of the supply. So like the example given of 16A to a road side charging post and with one car plugged in the car gets 16 amp and with two cars each car gets 7.5 amp I suppose one could get a car which tells the supply I need 30 kWh by 7:30 am and the chargers inbuilt computer works out you can draw 1 amp now to 1:30 am and then 16 amp 1:30 am to 7:30 am.

But without this automated system the user would have to sit there and work it out, it will need to start charging at 11:45 pm to get the extra required as only 25.75 kWh can be taken at 7 hours at 16 amp.

I see the point about tax, when LPG first arrived it was much cheaper, then the government taxed it at a reduced rate, in spite of being able to get LPG to also run central heating in the same way as 35 sec gas oil can both be used in a vehicle and central heating, unlike gas oil no dies are used to identify if for a diesel engined road vehicle (DERV) or something else. It is a trust system like with narrow boats. To tax the supply point would mean no one wants to provide charging points, and to tax the car would mean no one wants the car, so for next 20 years it is unlikely the government will put any tax on electric cars, in 20 years time it is unlikely cars built today are still running.

There is a problem in if you generate your own power then will the generator need to run on DERV or Red diesel? At the moment mobile generators built into electric cars are petrol and duty free petrol is hard to find, road sweepers have two fuel tanks, one red and one DERV so you can have an engine running built into a road vehicle which does not used DERV, so if there is a small generator built into the car to extend range and recharge battery and if you can use you car generator in an emergency to power your house, then what fuel will be used, DERV or red diesel.

I was working in Heathrow when they found a bendy bus with red diesel traces, seems it was used for passenger transfer within the airport and then moved to use outside the fence, although tank drained there were still traces. With vehicles exempt from duty under the road traffic act section 6 they could run on red diesel, this allowed farmers to use their tractors to push snow ploughs, but it also allowed the council to use red diesel in gritting wagons, however with demountable bodies this had to stop because you could not clean out the tank.

We would likely see the same problems with electric, policing the taxing of road fuel electric would be a nightmare, it would be worse than saying we want you to pay the council if you do electric work in your garden. So we may dream, but in real terms unlikely there will ever be a special tax for road electric. Buses pay duty on their diesel but the Blackpool trams have been going for years tax free.