Electrical Certification

[zand108]

If he has covered the cable runs and his "Qualifying Supervisor" has not yet attended to view such cable runs then how on earth can he sign it off as complying with the Building Regs and the Wiring Regs? He can`t .

If the installation is in England or Wales (Scotland is slightly different) then Local Authority Building Control must be notified in one of two ways

1/ Give 2 working days notice and pay a fee before commencement and allow the LABC to inspect/test as they may wish both during the works and upon completion of the works

or

2/ Use a Registered Domestic Installer (registered with one of the 5 schemes) who will do the works, give you an Electrical Installation Certificate upon completion AND notify both LABC & Yourself via such scheme provider within 28 days of completion.

That is a legal requirement, it is not voluntary it is compulsory so how can he now want an extra fee to comply with a something that has been law since Jan 1st 2005 ?

Ban & and the others are giving you excellent advice.

A Registered Domestic Installer may be a one man band who is his own qualifying supervisor or alternatively a firm might have a few "electricians" and one or more of them might be qualifying supervisors for the firm. If so that means they must supervise the works at all stages including viewing cable runs before they are covered up.


Just to clarify, I am a Registered Domestic Installer (I supervise myself and one part time employee).

I don`t usually encourage folk to withold payment from a contractor for no good reason (i wouldn`t like that done to me) , however I feel you are getting the runaround.
I suggest you withold (his quoted amount) £200 until you receive BOTH an Electrical Installation Certificate and notification of compliance with building regs from a scheme provider or LABC. 28 days is not that long to wait!

Or you might want to seek advice from LABC and Trading Standards whilst the job is in progress, no geniune firm would be offended.

Thanks for the getting involved ebee, in fact thanks to everyone that has gotten involved your invaluable comments and advice have been a godsend & really helped me to get a better understanding of my situation & how unacceptable this fitters conduct has been.

Once they figure out how to share beer over the internet the first round is on me

I am still confused about one thing. Many people have advised that it is up to the fitter to take the neccessary steps to ensure that I get my certification from the council. And he swears blind he will (for £200.00) However now that the cable runs have been covered up without inspection how can he manage to get this done???
Suppose we sort out the money issue and his QS does sign off on his work and within 28 days I get my certificatation from the council would I not still be using a potentially dangerous kitchen or at least a kitchen which may not be up to building regs. Should I not reject any solution he proposes which does not include opening up the cable runs for a complete inspection??

I am gonna talk to the builder once he comes round in about 10 minutes but I don't really know what to tell him should I get him to stop all work e.g. plumbing, tiling, e.t.c. and reduce his argument for payment, until someone can get down and look at the electric work he has done or should I trust him to continue and sort things out??

I really should say that he seems like a really nice guy and I don't actually have any proof that his work is not up to building regulation standard anything that has looked shoddy to me I have pointed out and he has fixed without complaint. This all started when I showed him some MK Grid Switches and he looked at me like I was asking him to turn water into wine! Apart from his cheek maybe I am just being paranoid about his work & if we can sort out this £200.00 issue things will work out...

 

[zand108]

He's at the door wish me luck!

 

[pompeygit]

Bottom line he has installed electrics in your kitchen he must notify the local authority.....its his problem.....the penalties for not doing this run to £1000's of pounds.

He sounds like a good tradesman so I hope this can be sorted out amicably, especially for him as his reputation would be in tatters if reported to Trading Standards

 

[ban-all-sheds]

One thing he did not like was the way the cable was run from the consumer unit to the kitchen. He thought it would have been better if the fitter had run the cable under the floorboards as opposed to down the walls as somebody putting nail into the walls might accidently electrocute themselves. Does this pose enough of a danger to ask him to change it???

There are rules about where buried cables are allowed to be precisely because of this risk.

http://www.voltimum.co.uk/files/gb/attachments/niu/l/attachments/c5-43.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/20061110111450/http://www.niceic.org.uk/downloads/concealedcables.pdf

IEE Article

So if the electrician thinks that these rules haven't been followed, or can't be sure that they have, then he can't sign anything to say that the work is OK.

Edited to remove long URL messing up the formatting

 

[zand108]

Ok the fitter was not happy at all... Kept asking why I was questioning the quality of his work and tells me that if I wanted the work done by an expert I should have gone to a qualified electrician and paid a lot more money. I told him if I knew he wasn't qualified and wasn't going to follow building regulations I would have done!

Overall I am paying him £2300 labour costs for a 5mx2m kitchen refit & buying all the units, paint, tiles e.t.c myself which I thought was a lot as others quoted less but I went for the middle quote.

Then he drops the punchline the electrician will be around in 2 weeks time. The work is scheduled to end on Friday coming. I've told him to get an electrician in today or tommorow. I will get on to trading standards or Consumer Direct later today and see where I stand.

He has really upset me now cos I am now certain he never had any intention of getting the work certified and then he has the cheek to blame me for him giving (what he calls) such a low quote in the first place. When the only thing I asked him at the beginning was how much??

 

[pompeygit]

Oh dear he really doesn't understand what rocky ground he is on, he should be biting your hand off as you are giving a great chance to come out unscathed. Before you involve Trading Standards tell him to Google part p prosecutions and when he sees the level of the fines he should get brown trousers

 

[zand108]

Oh dear he really doesn't understand what rocky ground he is on, he should be biting your hand off as you are giving a great chance to come out unscathed. Before you involve Trading Standards tell him to Google part p prosecutions and when he sees the level of the fines he should get brown trousers

Thing is I want to call Trading Standards to see where I stand but I don't really want to escalate the issue. At the moment tempers are flared and feathers are ruffled but the relationship is still somewhat amicable. I just don't want to have to pay more money to redo what has already been done I want him to figure out a way where we all get what we want. I just don't know if such a thing exists.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Oh dear he really doesn't understand what rocky ground he is on, he should be biting your hand off as you are giving a great chance to come out unscathed.

Yo - it's hard to see this:

tells me that if I wanted the work done by an expert I should have gone to a qualified electrician

as anything other than an admission that he's not qualified and doesn't do a proper job.

He has really upset me now cos I am now certain he never had any intention of getting the work certified

I'm absolutely sure you're right.

Before you involve Trading Standards tell him to Google part p prosecutions and when he sees the level of the fines he should get brown trousers

I wonder what TSO/LABC would discover about his past work if they started digging?

 

[pompeygit]

Technically I suppose you can't complain to Trading Standards until the job is finished and he has failed to provide certs. However perhaps a chat with them would be a good thing if you can do it without naming the contractor at this stage.

He has dug a deep hole for himself. and as a kitchen fitter he knows the law. Perhaps you should pass onto him advice of TS so that he can work out a solution. Do remember it is his problem, he has an awful lot at stake. He has to provide a solution not you.

You should not be parting with a penny more than you quoted, and at the end of the job you should get an EIC from him AND a compliance notification from LA

 

[ebee]

Zand108,
I appreciate your thank you.
However it is really deserved by Oharaf, Spark123, luminaire, Ban Industry Spark and the others.
I merely supported their advice from a RDI point of view.
Stick to your guns and keep us advised

 

[zand108]

I called my Trading Standards department and was immediately transferred to Consumer Direct who told me that electric/building work is outside of their jurisdiction. and that I would be better off talking to the LABC. I'm thinking of giving them a call but aren't they likely to want much more specifics than Trading Standards especially as it seems as though there is blatant circumvention of their procedures going on here?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Call them and see what they want.

Failing to notify is an offence in itself. Even if the work was done to the most fabulous standards by the best electrician in the world, he would still have broken the law if he didn't notify, so they ought to be able to take notice of your guy with very few details. That said, if they are going to pursue it they will want more details - for all the talk of prosecutions for contravening Part P I'm not aware of any where it's just been failure to notify, AFAIK there's always been other stuff, like dangerous work, falsely claiming to be registered etc.

 

[zand108]

Hi all another update for you.

Ok have now had another independant electrician come round as it turns out the first independant electrician wasn't independant or even an electrician at all. My dad thought he could save some cash by getting one of his mates in who does the occasional job here and there silly man.

Anyway got someone to come round and booked them myself this time and kept dad well out of it. Electrician charged £55 and did (what looked to me anyway) a proper job didn't take any prompting from me at all just hopped around the kitchen and consumer unit pulling out wires, cutting plastic sheathing and clipping devices with lights onto them that went beep.

Identified quite a few problems that he wanted to be corrected but thought that overall the work had been done well.

Socket boxes missing rubber thingies (my description not his).
Oven socket too low < 400mm.
Earth under sink attached to only one of the pipes (should've be both).
Wiring run against hot water pipes (Didn't like that at all, thought the heat might melt the plastic and electrocute someone in the bath)
Identifed that there was no socket for Washing Machine (I didn't even notice).

Then he tells me something completely unexpected, once the problems he has identified have been fixed he be willing to come back and for £180 ~ £200 test everything again and if the changes he highlighted have been made and he finds no new problems give me a certificate .

I didn't think electricians were willing to certify other electricians work so I asked him if he intended to send the neccessary paperwork off to the LABC so I could receive a certificate of compliance from them. He replies that this is a small job and as such there is no need to notify LABC and that he wouldn't do so. But I could do so myself if I wanted to with the certificate he was going to issue.

Is this one trying it on as well? Seems to be in contradiction to what alot of people have been advising here.

 

[GaryMo]

Socket boxes missing rubber thingies (my description not his).

That'll be grommets though no direct regulation requiring them. Good practice more than anything when cables enter backboxes without sharp edges.

Oven socket too low < 400mm.

Not applicable. As long as the oven low level socket isn't lower than any of your other accessories then no problem at all.

Earth under sink attached to only one of the pipes (should've be both).

Your electrician is still working to the 15th edition. Tell him he needs an update, we're currently on the 17th edition!

Wiring run against hot water pipes

That's a very fair observation. Cable needs re-routing.

I didn't think electricians were willing to certify other electricians work so I asked him if he intended to send the neccessary paperwork off to the LABC so I could receive a certificate of compliance from them. He replies that this is a small job and as such there is no need to notify LABC and that he wouldn't do so. But I could do so myself if I wanted to with the certificate he was going to issue.

I don't think your new electrician understands Part P either!

As for giving you a certificate, he could only do that if he was 100% sure the things he can't see, including cable runs etc have been carried out in accordance with BS7671. This is almost impossible as he doesn't consistently work with the kitchen fitter to know his work.
Even then, he could only sign for the Inspection and Testing, Mr Kitchen Fitter would have to sign the EIC as the designer and constructor.

The only sensible thing he could do for you is give you a Periodic Inspection Report.

You'll still have a problem with Part-P though.

 

[securespark]

Socket boxes missing rubber thingies (my description not his).

That'll be grommets though no direct regulation requiring them.

Sure there are - regulations requiring that equipment be erected or sited so as to minimise damage...