F & E tank ( the saga continues )

[rgbd]

Good evening Gents , following on from last nights thread here is the outcome of todays messing about with the pipes.........
Drained the CW tank in the loft , drained the HW cyl through the drain point at the bottom , drained the F & E tank to approx 1" above the feed for the CH. Left the heating turned off and switched the zone switch to manual. Checked the water level in the F & E tank 2 hours later and it had risen 3cm.
Closed the supply valve from the CW tank to the HW cyl and checked the drain point on the cyl incase it had been trickling in ( nothing , still empty). Checked the F & E tank an hour later and it had risen another 1cm.
Turned on the CH to see if the pump would push the water into the HW cyl ( through any leak in the coil ) turned heating off after a few minutes as I didn't want to blow anything up. Checked the level in the F&E , water still there , no change in level , checked the HW cyl drain , nothing coming out ( even removed the drain valve completely and still nothing.)
Wife said " what about the mains ? " so I turned off the mains coming into the house just to please her. Checked the F&E an hour later and the level had risen another 1cm. Any idea where the water is coming from ? Could it be anything to do with the boiler or pump ??
Totally flummoxed now so I have filled everything back up and turned the heating on . Am now back to the daily ritual of removing 2 buckets of water from the F&E to stop the overflow dripping.
Can I run my HW / Heating with the zone valve on manual or should I put it on Auto ??
Just for interest.... All the CW taps and both WC's in the house are fed by the mains ( is this normal ? ) CW tank in loft only supplies the HW cyl and the pump for the shower. Also found out from a neighbour that this house used to belong to a plumber ( GOD HELP ME NOW ) Now contemplating replacing the whole system. Cheers RGBD

 

[corgiman]

if you have turned the mains off and it still rises HOLY ****** i have absolutely no idea what is going on as its rising without water coming inthe house

what boiler do you have?

 

[rgbd]

Corgiman..... Promise not to LYAO it's an IDEAL ELAN 2.

I know you all slag ideal but I diddn't choose it , it was put in when the house was built , the whole street has them.

 

[corgiman]

the elan is alright

ut it dont answer the question as to where this water is coming from, did you isolate you mains from an internal stop cock on in the road?

 

[rgbd]

Corgiman.... just had a thought , when I turned the mains off I didn't open any taps so the pressure would still be present in the pipework . Can't think of anything in the house that uses mains CW and HW for them to cross through Cheers RGBD

 

[corgiman]

but u may have a rupture in a pipe some where, unlikely but hey I am open to anything now

try turning of you stop cock and opening the cold kitchen tap

 

[rgbd]

Isolated the mains at a stopcock which is under the sink in the downstairs WC . Just thought , under the floor in that WC there is a drain point with 3 seperate gate valves that all go into the same drain pipe which leads out through the side of the house at ground level. The gate valves are for the HW , CW and CH , would it be possible for this to be causing the problem if anyof these were passing ? I haven't seen any water coming out of the pipe outside .

 

[corgiman]

turn off your supply in the raod, open the tap to ensure its off and see what happens.

maybe some pillock has attached the mains to the central heating and the isolating valves is starting to let by

 

[rgbd]

have just checked the stopcock and it is working fine.

 

[corgiman]

but can you be 100% sure that its shutting everything down?

if it dont that would go some way in explaining why we are getting water in the f&e tank, cos its sure as hell coming from somewhere, or you may have answered the water shortage problem for the world with you magic water supply

 

[rgbd]

Too late in the day for messing about with the pipes. To be 100% sure I will close stopcock and disconnect the pipework there tomorrow.... Cheers Corgiman , keep up the good work..RGBD.

PS . wanna buy a house with a magic water supply

 

[Softus]

rgbd, here's my take on this, if you need yet another one...

If the water level in the F&E is constantly rising, then it can only come from a source that is at higher pressure (don't roll your eyes guys - stay with me).

Your CWS (cold water storage) is higher than the F&E, and your mains pressure is higher than the head of the F&E, so these are your known sources of higher pressure water.

If you've drained the CWS cistern so that its level is lower than that of the F&E, and the F&E level still rises, then it would appear that the cylinder coil is no longer a suspect.

If you've shut off the mains, opened (& kept open, & told your wife to keep open) the lowest mains fed cold tap in the house, and the F&E level still rises, then it would appear that the normal mains feed is no longer a suspect.

There's nothing else in any normal system that you can hold under suspicion, implying that you need to be looking for the abnormal.

However, before you do that, I suggest that you recap both of the tests above to check that you really have eliminated the possibility of the cylinder coil.

You've mentioned that all cold taps in the house are mains fed, but you can't think of anything that mixes mains cold and tank fed hot. Well how about a shower valve? I had a customer with a recent problem whereby a shower mixer was leaking mains cold into the tank fed hot, and slowly pushing water out of the bottom of the cylinder and into the CWS cistern, so I know from first hand experience that this can happen.

However, (before you let your mouse wander onto the "Reply" button) I do realise that your CWS is not overflowing, but the F&E is. So for this fault to affect your F&E then you would need to have a defective cylinder coil.

This is why I suggest that you re-test. If, after doing that, the fault isn't revealed, then I would be looking first at the oddity that you mentioned under the WC.

After that, you'll be sailing into the uncharted waters of problems with an implausibility rating that borders on the impossible. For example, if you had a CH pipe running uncomfortably close to a cold mains pipe, somewhere, and the two had become conjoined, and a pinprick hole formed between them, then it would be possible for mains water to enter the CH system. Unlikely? Very. However, you have a very unlikely set of symptoms.

 

[rgbd]

Softus... Thanks for the input can never have too much information , Re the shower valve . I have a power shower with the pump situated in the loft below the level of the CWS and F&E. the pump is cold fed from the bottom of the CWS and the hot feed comes from the side of the HW Cyl approx 9" from the top. thie water is pumped horizontally through the loft and straight down to the shower mixer valve. Only observations I can make about the shower are :-

The pump is always powered up as the on/off switch is in the loft.

If you turn on the hot tap in the kitchen too quickly the shower pump starts braying like a donkey ( trying to pump when not asked to ) the quickest way to stop it is to turn the shower on & off again.

After I refilled the CWS & HW cyl yesterday the shower was air locked ( turned shower on & pump didn't start ) got that sorted easily enough though.

Like you said if the shower was a problem the coil would need to be burst but since we checked it before putting it in situ and the fact that the F&E water level rose yesterday when both the CWS and HW cyl were empty It can't be the coil as it wasn't in contact with any water / external pressure.

I will double check the main feed into the house and have a rot around under the floor today , cheers

 

[Softus]

...the pump is cold fed from the bottom of the CWS and the hot feed comes from the side of the HW Cyl approx 9" from the top.

If the shower doesn't take cold from the mains then it can disregarded for the purpose of diagnosing your F&E problem. However, an observation while I'm here:

If you turn on the hot tap in the kitchen too quickly the shower pump starts braying like a donkey ( trying to pump when not asked to )...

That can happen if your shower feed from the CWS is not dedicated.

Like you said if the shower was a problem the coil would need to be burst but since we checked it before putting it in situ

No criticism implied here, but I'm skeptical that your test was adequate. Did you measure the pressuree that you applied to it during your test, to simulate the head of water given by the F&E? (Although this question is made irrelevant by your next statement).

...and the fact that the F&E water level rose yesterday when both the CWS and HW cyl were empty It can't be the coil as it wasn't in contact with any water / external pressure.

I agree with you.

I will double check the main feed into the house and have a rot around under the floor today , cheers [/quote]
I hope you meant "root"

I wish you luck! It would be interesting to know what the F&E water level if you were to open all those gate valves under the WC floor (with all other systems empty of course).

 

[rgbd]

Softus....... Haven't been able to do anything with the heating today as she who must be obeyed has had the washing machine on all day and had me busy painting & puting up new light fittings.

Will try your idea about opening the gate valves tomorrow but I can't open all 3 because 1 of them drains the whole CH system down and empties the F&E. I think the 1 for the HW only drains the pipework leading to the taps and doesn't drain the HW cyl. Don't know what the CW one does as I have never opened it but I would imagine it does the same as the HW one.

Should I set the Zone valve to AUTO or MANUAL while observing the F&E or try both to see if there is any difference ?? I assume that I will have to turn the mains off at the same time ??

And finally yes I did mean ROOT , don't use spell checker and can't type like a woman yet Thanks for the advice RGBD