Flow problems with two pumps

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As mentioned in my other post, I recently added a DHW primary circuit pump and a motorised valve to upgrade an old Profile with 28mm Gravity HW.

Here it is now:

View media item 11525
As you see, the DHW return joins the return from CH below the CH pump.

Perhaps not surprisingly, there is a modest amount of reverse flow going up the CH return, when the HW circulator is running. I am thinking a 28mm check valve (is there such a thing?) would cure that

With both pumps on Low, there is no pumping over except if HW is on, and CH is started. There is then a slight and momentary "gulp" of perhaps half a cup of water out of the vent. I am of the opinion that this is due to the back-flow being abruptly reversed. It might be relevant that all upstairs rads, and most downstairs rads, were turned off at this time. I was considering increasing the height of the vent pipe bend by 700mm or so in the hope that this will cure it. I was also considering bridging the F&E and the vent where they pass through the airing cupboard or loft. They both run horizontally in the loft for 4 metres or so before going to the F&E tank.

Both pumps are 15/50 and are currently set to low speed. When they were both on High speed during testing, there was a consistent flow out of the Vent. I suppose the HW pump could afford to be even weaker since it only has to waft the water up a 28mm pipe and round the cylinder. However there is a horizontal run of 5 metres or so under the landing floor after they have risen from the boiler before they reach the airing cupboard and rise up to the boiler.

The system is pretty clean, I used X400 twice and have a Magnaclean on CH return.

What suggestions, please?

I am not very fond of plumbing and don't want to cut and alter the pipes much more if I can help it.
 
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I cannot see what kind of pump valve you have and I am not even so sure which is the hot water but assume its the one without a motor valve.

If the pumps are on the flow then I think you have been naughty as the vent should be immediately after the boiler. If they are on the return then thats not the preferred position any more.

You can turn the pump valve on the HW side until its almost fully closed as the pumped flow required is only very small. This extra resistance may solve some of your problems.

As you usually give others good advice I am disappointed that your own system looks such a mess!

Tony
 
:(

both pumps are on return

new HW pump has new gate valves

new Motor valve is on HW return directly above new pump

Flow pipe is unobstructed

From what you say I not not clear where you mean the vent should be.

It's not my system, it belongs to my old mum and is the result of several changes over the years (none of them by me) - boiler was replaced, and all pipes running upwards were rerouted during alterations, so they are quite squashed together.

The object of the changes was to improve the old DHW gravity flow, which was very slow to heat the cyl, and wasteful of gas. With no Cyl stat, it ran continually subject only to timer and boiler stat.

System used to look like this:

View media item 11526
only the labels and insulation are by me :LOL:

if that's any help

Vent and F&E rise up from cylinder in airing cupboard, it is just over 10 metres from the boiler
 
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I have added the para "object of changes..." above

see also my previous post "Adding pump to gravity HW circ"

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=170017

p.s. Tony thanks for the tip about the Gate Valve on the DHW side. This needs no plumbing or wiring changes and is cheap :D Will it hurt the pump to be obstructed? Do you think I also need a check valve? They seem shockingly expensive in 28mm.
 
JohnD,

I posted last night, correctly predicting these exact problems. Any amount of pumping over can cause serious problems within the system.

With all due respect JohnD, it all looks a bit Heath Robinson. Why not call in the experts and get the job done properly?

And is that a Grundfos bronze pump I spy?
 
too mean/no money

what about a check valve then?
 
maybe so, but I didn't want to have to reconfigure all those pipes, some are tightly packed together

I am a DIY householder, not a pro, after all.

What about turning down the DHW pump gate valve - is it likely to help both probs, and will the pump have a prob if flow partially obstructed?

Is there something wrong with the vent layout?

what about the check valve idea to prevent reverse flow on the CH?

I won't be there again for about a week.
 
If the pumps are on the flow then I think you have been naughty as the vent should be immediately after the boiler. If they are on the return then thats not the preferred position any more.
Tony, I didn't understand that bit, can you explain? You seem to be saying they shouldn't be on the flow (they aren't) nor on the return :confused:
 

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