hard wired fire alarm in bedroom?

[Lostdog]

doing a property conversion from a house to 5 flats, that will be 3 story with the loft conversion, they will be self contained flats, own water and electric with split deeds

do the flats need to have a hardwired smoke alarm in the bedroom? connected to the smoke and heat in the kitchen and lobby

thanks

 

[^woody^]

If someone is designing this ask them, or get site specific specialist advise.

You may need a system for the common areas and a system for each flat and these systems may need to be interlinked or partially interlinked (one detector only). Bedrooms can be required to have detectors depending on the layout and escape distances, or they may need a sounder only.

 

[frutbunn]

Smoke detection should be provided independently to each flat grade D2 category L3.

Detection is not required in common areas, except to operate smoke ventilation but normally this will not sound.

Edit - Should have added the philosophy behind means of escape for flats is to stay put in each flat, so interconnecting systems between flats and to common areas is normally avoided.

 

[wessex101]

Smoke detection should be provided independently to each flat grade D2 category L3.

Detection is not required in common areas, except to operate smoke ventilation but normally this will not sound.

Edit - Should have added the philosophy behind means of escape for flats is to stay put in each flat, so interconnecting systems between flats and to common areas is normally avoided.

"Stay Put Policy", hmmmm. I wonder how much longer that will be tolerated. It relies on excellent compartmentation between flats and common areas. That seems to be nigh on impossible to achieve in new builds so good luck achieving that in a conversion.

 

[^woody^]

Detection is not required in common areas, except to operate smoke ventilation but normally this will not sound.

Under the FSO 2005 it could be

 

[^woody^]

"Stay Put Policy", hmmmm. I wonder how much longer that will be tolerated. It relies on excellent compartmentation between flats and common areas. That seems to be nigh on impossible to achieve in new builds so good luck achieving that in a conversion.

It will be tolerated after 500 people get evacuated after one person burns the toast and sets the block alarm off a few times

 

[frutbunn]

Under the FSO 2005 it could be

No, not only would it actually be contrary to the whole philosophy of MOE for flats, but as the work is to be carried out to the latest B regs it follows the guidance in "Fire Risk Assessment: Sleeping Accommodation". In practice I've never known of an instance where it has been provided to a conversion or new build.

 

[^woody^]

No, not only would it actually be contrary to the whole philosophy of MOE for flats, but as the work is to be carried out to the latest B regs it follows the guidance in "Fire Risk Assessment: Sleeping Accommodation". In practice I've never known of an instance where it has been provided to a conversion or new build.

The FSO trumps building regulations every day of the week.

As for you never knowing alarms being provided to commercial or new build, well you won't unless you work in fire safety risk assessments and the FSO.

 

[frutbunn]

As for you never knowing alarms being provided to commercial or new build, well you won't unless you work in fire safety risk assessments and the FSO.

Its not commercial its flats. I suggest you read the guidance doc I quoted regarding communal areas in flats, its very clear. As I said using detection in these areas goes directly against all guidance and MOE philosophy and is in fact discouraged by all the fire authorities I've worked with, as you yourself have stated you don't want 500 [people wandering around every time an alarm goes off.

 

[^woody^]

Its not commercial its flats. I suggest you read the guidance doc I quoted regarding communal areas in flats, its very clear. As I said using detection in these areas goes directly against all guidance and MOE philosophy and is in fact discouraged by all the fire authorities I've worked with, as you yourself have stated you don't want 500 [people wandering around every time an alarm goes off.

I suggest that you start working in fire safety risk assessments, before stating what does or doesn't apply.

 

[frutbunn]

I suggest that you start working in fire safety risk assessments, before stating what does or doesn't apply.

I suggest you start you start working in building control before you stating what does or doesn't apply.

 

[^woody^]

I suggest you start you start working in building control before you stating what does or doesn't apply.

Lol. Don't you understand that your involvement is once during the build, but the FSO applies forever afterwards, yearly or every third year risk assessments, and fire service inspections anytime.

 

[wessex101]

It will be tolerated after 500 people get evacuated after one person burns the toast and sets the block alarm off a few times

Ay? So you think the only way to provide fire detection in a large residential block is linked smoke detectors in all the kitchens? When they install sprinkler systems do you think they activate every time someone burns the toast?

How do you think they do it in hotels, hospitals, care homes etc.

I would say we need a more dynamic fire management system so that when the fire brigade can see a building is well alight and out of control they are not advising residents to stay put and die.

Here's an idea, how about monitored fire alarm systems for all buildings of more than 100 residents or 6 storeys etc. Heat detectors in flats and optical/heat in common areas as required. Initial activation is a silent alarm that is checked by on-site caretaker or first responder/fire brigade. Only if fire is endangering life or no steps are taken to override the initial activation after 30 minutes then full alarm activation and building evacuation. That should still give 30 minute to evacuate the building safely before the compartmentation starts to fail (fingers crossed).

There you go, Grenfell fixed. Just call me Dame Judy!

 

[^woody^]

Ay? So you think the only way to provide fire detection in a large residential block is linked smoke detectors in all the kitchens? When they install sprinkler systems do you think they activate every time someone burns the toast?

How do you think they do it in hotels, hospitals, care homes etc.

I would say we need a more dynamic fire management system so that when the fire brigade can see a building is well alight and out of control they are not advising residents to stay put and die.

Here's an idea, how about monitored fire alarm systems for all buildings of more than 100 residents or 6 storeys etc. Heat detectors in flats and optical/heat in common areas as required. Initial activation is a silent alarm that is checked by on-site caretaker or first responder/fire brigade. Only if fire is endangering life or no steps are taken to override the initial activation after 30 minutes then full alarm activation and building evacuation. That should still give 30 minute to evacuate the building safely before the compartmentation starts to fail (fingers crossed).

There you go, Grenfell fixed. Just call me Dame Judy!

Firstly, I don't know WFT your first sentence is about. Has that statement even been mentioned in the thread?

Secondly, you're mixing up purpose built and refurb, along with different usage. All of these impact on what is required and what options are available, and require different standards and assessment.

Finally, and fundamentally, currently it is the fire safety risk assessor who determines what measures are required, and this will be based on the site and occupancy specifics. Building control are long gone once the building is occupied, but in those buildings you mention, a new assessment is required every single year.

 

[wessex101]

Firstly, I don't know WFT your first sentence is about. Has that statement even been mentioned in the thread?

Secondly, you're mixing up purpose built and refurb, along with different usage. All of these impact on what is required and what options are available, and require different standards and assessment.

Finally, and fundamentally, currently it is the fire safety risk assessor who determines what measures are required, and this will be based on the site and occupancy specifics. Building control are long gone once the building is occupied, but in those buildings you mention, a new assessment is required every single year.

You suggested burnt toast would trigger a full building evacuation of 500 people did you not? Come on old fella try to keep up. I did quote your comment to try and make it easier.

My second point was that fire risk assessments, current building regulations and policy on fire precautions etc. are clearly not fit for purpose. It is a shame that the Hackitt Review has turned in to a white wash and is more interested in maintaining the status quo and hanging out a few scapegoats whilst the fundamental inadequacies of the system are brushed under the carpet.