Heating Mafia

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Paul McC writes in another thread:

Is it impossible for a member of the public to install their own oil boiler as an OFTEC registered engineer will only cert their own work.... What would be the process to get the OK on a boiler I install myself.?

I’m starting a new thread here as it’s a subject in its own right.

Being in the same position as you, Paul, I have taken a close interest in this. It seems to me that, no, you cannot install or modify your system without ‘expert’ intervention. As Oilman said, you could ask a registered engineer to sign off the work but he would be laying himself open. Indeed, you’re supposed to notify Building Control at the local council if you want to change boilers, who will then have you in your sights and want to know the job is being done by a ‘professional’

So between the heating industry and Mr Prescott, we DIY-ers have been got by the short & curlies. We are banned from touching our own systems in our own homes. This collective Mafia has, in its own interests, persuaded the government to introduce standards enforceable by law.

How the bureaucrats love it. Energy conservation, public safety, risk aversion, “if it saves just one life...” etc etc. Lots of hooray words. Makes so much sense, doesn’t it? To me it’s a gross infringement of my right to do what I want in my house, so long as it’s not illegal (which rather begs the question) or inconveniences others.

This is not a rant against Oilman and those good folk like him who know their business and want to make an honest living, but I already have bitter experience of ‘experts’ who either don’t know or don’t care. Are they in any better position to install a system than those of us who take a real interest in the subject, do their homework, and tackle a job with a determination to get it right through pride of ownership?

Nor do I have any objection to new homes being built to enforceable standards. No-one owns them yet, so no liberties are being infringed. As they are added to the housing stock, so energy efficiency will improve. And no-one could quarrel with the idea of manufacturers being encouraged to better their products, backed by industry benchmarks (although market forces are probably a strong enough incentive).

Of course I may be talking out of my posterior vent - Oilman and others will no doubt put us right.

I did ask Mr Prescott about this but he was too busy deciding whether to let Mr Cuthbertson of Stoke Poges change a tap washer...
 
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To say "Is it impossible for a member of the public to install their own oil boiler as an OFTEC registered engineer will only cert their own work" is compleatly untrue.

By being CORGI or OFTEC we are permitted to SELF CERTIFY OUR OWN WORK and installations. We do NOT have the legal right to certify the work of others. This is the responcibility of Building Control at the town hall.

In this age of legal action for minor things I for one would never put my name to the work of others.

Alan
 
AlanE . If you never put your name to others work how do you maintain and service boilers installed by AN OTHER ?you have to assess the installation when you service and if ok are then responsible for it, you cant work on a boiler without leaving it in a safe and legal position, you either pass or fail AN others work not ignore it? if no one was alowd to assess others work then the cowboys would rule
 
With the new benchmark rules, the first part of the log book is filled out by the installer, then the commissioning engineer and then the subsequent services, they are all separarte , when you service the boiler you are only responsible for the boiler NOT the complete system, because you only have to touch the boiler nothing else

I fully agree with Alan I also would not put my name to someone elses work and nor would a lot of good engineers [/u]
 
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not being a plumber or heating engineer, my tuppence worth says this.

Its a bit like fixing a .................. (what ever you choose) you may read all the books, get the t shirt etc, but it doesn't mean to say you can actually DO the job.

The following ilustrates my point (yes i know its not real, and the actor is no longer with us)

Take the book "Fly fishing" by J R R Harttley he was an old boy who wrote a book when he was much younger, now fly fishing (i dont know jack about it) can't have changed all that much, so his book would still be relevant, but suppose you saw a website "written" by J R R Harttley you may think website, must be up todate, or not even give it a 2nd thought but consider how long ago it was written, regs have changed (they always do ) which would mean what the book / information you have says may now be wrong / out of date (take Asbestos, they thought it was Marvelous when they invented it)

A book can not show you how to bend a pipe (or similar "thing") that is why people learn a trade, a trades person (any trade) takes years to learn how to do.............. you can not learn it "in five minutes", because you read it in a book, Take what ever your day time job is, could you honestly expect to teach a.n. Other what ever it is you do from a book "in five minutes" NO, but that is what you are trying to do with DIY, some jobs are NOT for the DIY person, and IMHO fitting a boiler is not one of them
 
I haven't read every word in this thread, but there are a few points.

1. anyone can install an oil boiler, if you are not oftec registered, you have to involve the building control department.

2. Competent persons can only certify their own work.

3. I service boilers, many of them do not comply with current regulations, nor did they comply when they were installed, I just have to inform the owner how they don't comply. I do not HAVE to tell them how to rectify the problems, though I do. Some are arguably not safe because they don't have a remote acting fire valve. My duty is to TELL them it does not comply, after that it's their responsibility. If it had a leaking oilline to the burner, or anywhere inside the house I WILL fix it, but I only have to tell the owner and they COULD ask me to fix it.

I don't HAVE to make it safe, I DO HAVE to tell them why it's not safe.

If it's not boilers it's almost always the tank that doesn't comply. This is usually to do with fire break clearances, in the wrong circumstances they are not safe, I just have to inform the owner.

Mr Prescott was NOT talking to Mr Cuthbertson, he was too busy flying round the countryside in his helicopter looking for any rural place where he could inflict more of his manic housing schemes. Presumably this a continual attempt to obtain the title of The Country's Most Hated Man.

Don't worry John you're well ahead.
 
I am someone who loves his DIY.

My flat was in a pretty good state when I bought it and I haven't found any horrors (other than the fetish that builders and joiners all seem to share for nails: what is wrong with screws?! much easier when you want to REMOVE the superfluous studwork later on!)

Now, what if the previous owners had woken up one morning and leapt out of bed shouting "hey, a combi boiler. Only a gas pipe, a cold inlet and a hot outlet. Easy job!", then toddled off to their nearest super-shed to buy one and then installed it (with the help of Wickes "Bad Idea" leaflet no. 432). Now, I would possibly be living in a death trap.

I reckon that heating may be one area where the regs need to be tightened. Why not bring it up to the same level as for rented accomodation? What if you had to have your gas checked and boiler serviced EVERY YEAR, and without the certificate TRANSCO were legally obliged to cut off your gas? Even better if it could force down the price of getting it serviced (saw someone getting charged something like £700 to replace a valve on a combi on one of those hidden camera programs).
 
Well said AdamW! Nails are for Mrs Beckham.

Sorry, guys. Some of you have missed the point. Firstly AlanE may have misunderstood PaulMcC when he said “an OFTEC registered engineer will only certify their own work”. I think Paul meant the engineer’s own work, not that of the owner. And I quite understand why you would not want to sign off anyone else’s handiwork in this “sue, sue, sue” society of ours.

But I am not asking you or Cog or Billy Bob to authorise my work. I am simply saying you should not have to BY LAW.

Please let me explain this further from the viewpoint of an unqualified enthusiast. Remember, I’m not having a bash at any of you professionals on this site.

The real menaces are the bodgers who don’t have enough information on how to do the job. They will always exist, and no laws will stop them any more than laws eliminate tax dodgers.

It has been unbelievably difficult for an amateur like me to get really good information from the web - a place where you can easily find all human knowledge on quantum theory, curry recipes, and how to make a bomb. I cannot, for instance, find a single reference on where is the best place in the heating circuit to put the circulation pump.

Instead of our friend JP hiding behind a bus shelter with his Grundfos equivalent of the speed trap, why doesn’t he get his people to set up a stonking good website that explains, with great clarity, how to design and install a heating system? Yes, make it available through the council’s Building Control department too. This would go some way to reducing the number of bodgers and cowboys. Most people wouldn’t even consider tackling the job, so it’s hardly going to start a national outbreak of “install-your-own boiler” mania, any more than the appearance of all those Homebase-type stores has done.

What troubles me about the legal position is that it assumes - insists - that I am incompetent. Never mind that I have built the sweetest, most efficient heating system in the universe (please God), I have broken the law. Guilty. No defence, no chance to prove that it’s a state-of-art system, and no appeal. That is not the way things work in this country.

Breezer is so right about JRR Hartley. But no-one ever got prosecuted for a bad day’s fly fishing. Mind you, give JP half a chance...

Paul
 
PaulAH said:
a place where you can easily find all human knowledge on quantum theory, curry recipes, and how to make a bomb.

My old tutor at uni said that whilst the internet was a great place to get information, it is hard to get CORRECT information.

I tried recipes off the net that were rubbish (although maybe I misinterpreted the American definition of "a cup of flour", swmbo was not pleased at the state of her bra after that).

Quantum theory is another fun one. You search in Google and find an article that seems perfectly good. Then you reach the third paragraph where it says "...of course, when Captain Kirk met T'nok the Vulcan at Sodomus Prime..." Then you realise it is a work of fantasy, written by someone who has as much grasp of physics as "Wickesbase'n'Q" does on the legality of DIY Combi boilers. Star Trek is a great programme but it doesn't half plant some strange ideas on the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle into the minds of impressionable teens. :p
 
But I am not asking you or Cog or Billy Bob to authorise my work. I am simply saying you should not have to BY LAW.

A COMPETENT PERSON CANNOT CERTIFY YOUR WORK!!!!! YOU CAN HAVE IT APPROVED BY THE BUILDING CONTROL DEPARTMENT. Heating is a controlled service, if you put it in, the building control dept keeps the records.

Instead of our friend JP hiding behind a bus shelter with his Grundfos equivalent of the speed trap, why doesn’t he get his people to set up a stonking good website that explains, with great clarity, how to design and install a heating system?

JP cannot hide behind bus shelters, his helicopter is too big.


What troubles me about the legal position is that it assumes - insists - that I am incompetent. Never mind that I have built the sweetest, most efficient heating system in the universe (please God), I have broken the law. Guilty.


The legal system does NOT question your competence. All it says is that if you haven't passed the assessments, and you are a registered business, you can't certify your own work. In that case you get the building control department to approve it and they keep the records.

YOU HAVE BROKEN THE LAW ONLY IF THE BUILDING CONTROL DEPARTMENT CANNOT FIND A ROUTE TO THE APPROVAL DOCUMENT

SO IF THEY HAVE THE RECORD, OR A COMPETENT PERSON HAS THE RECORD, THATS OK.

Stop worrying, talk to the building control people, put your boiler in and get them to provide the certificate of compliance. You can get all the info you need for oil compliance from the OFTEC site.

STOP WORRYING!!
STOP WORRYING!!
STOP WORRYING!!
 
Dear All,
Firstly, many thanks for all your advice and info. Your comments are greatly appreciated and they all help us DIYers start to understand the world of installing oil boilers! Please do not think I'm having a dig at heating installers/engineers etc. but like PaulAH I feel that I can competently install a boiler and just need some help in understanding how a member of the public can do this without creating any problems with respect to Building regs/house insurance/selling the house at a later date.

As I see it (please correct me if I'm wrong ) there are 3 options:

1) Full Monty
Install: OFTEC Engineer
Commission: OFTEC Engineer
Cert: OFTEC Engineer

2) Half way house
Install: DIYer
Commission: OFTEC Engineer
Cert: OFTEC Engineer

3) DIY
Install: DIYer
Commission: DIYer
Cert: Building Controls Dept (Certificate of Compliance)

My point from previous threads was that I don't think Option 2 is possible as an OFTEC engineer would not / cannot cert someone elses installation.

Therefore, I'm left with option 3. I'm currently trying to get in touch with my local building controls dept and will report back with my findings. It will be interesting to see how the buildings control dept can cert an installation without the knowledge from an OFTEC engineer - Am I entering a chicken and egg situation?


Many thanks,
PaulMcC
 
In above list

Option 1 - Correct


Option 2 - Correct but in this order
Install: DIYer
Cert: Building Controls Dept (Certificate of Compliance)
Commission: OFTEC Engineer


Option 3 - Not acceptable
Install: DIYer .
Cert: Building Controls Dept (Certificate of Compliance)
Commission: DIYer - Yes but not acceptable - no qualifications


When in the future you try to sell house you might well meet problems particually when the sellers packs are introduced.

You might well also find problems should the boiler go wrong and you expect warranty work carried out.

Scaremongering consider this? Many boiler manufacturers are offering the basic 12months warranty on parts due to manufacturing defects. You could find it hard to proove this was the cause if boiler is not comissioned by a qualified person.

Many also offer extended guarantees on certain parts PROVIDED the appliance has been comissioned, and regularly serviced, by a qualified person.

Manufacturers have now adopted the idea of cutting up heat exchangers etc to determine the cause of failure and if that failure is due to improper comissioning or not using recomended inhibiters or not flushing to the correct standard the warranty claim is thrown out and you get the bill.

Fiction NO FACT.

Alan
 
Thank you all for listening and helping. I do get hot under the collar when bureaucracy treats us like fools but, hey, this is a heating forum.

After reading Oilman’s comforting words, I called the local building control people at Uttlesford Council. A very helpful guy (yeh, they’re not all out to get us) talked it through and, although I wasn’t entirely convinced that DIYers are welcome under this legislation, we came to the conclusion that AlanE’s Option 2 (or the equivalent of) would be acceptable for all practical purposes.

- I install the boiler, controls etc
- I call Mr Building Control
- He comes round and checks that it meets building regs (spec of boiler, location etc. But he stressed they don’t actually test the system, check for leaks and such).
- I call Mr OFTEC
- He commissions the system and fills in the report.
- I send the forms off to Mr Building Control. He either comes round again or signs it off in his office. All for about £117.

So we have Building Control approval and an OFTEC commissioner’s inspection, all signed and sealed and lodged at the council offices. Surely any solicitor would be happy with that.

My one nagging doubt is when Billy Bob says “I fully agree with Alan, I also would not put my name to someone elses work and nor would a lot of good engineers”

The commissioning form (looking at the one that came with my boiler) is mostly tick boxes. I don’t see how a qualified engineer would be laying himself open, as some of you fear, if he simply checks out everything that is required of him. Is there a fire valve installed? Tick. Is there an auto-bypass valve? Tick. Does the control system have interlock? Tick. CO emissions? Measured and recorded.

If you refuse to “put your name to someone else’s work” how can we get the thing commissioned in the first place?

It would be interesting to hear how Paul McC gets on with his council. Let us know, Paul.
 
....an OFTEC commissioner’s inspection, all signed and sealed and lodged at the council offices.

If an OFTEC business does the commissioning, that business holds the records, not the council

I don’t see how a qualified engineer would be laying himself open, as some of you fear, if he simply checks out everything that is required of him.

Because one of the things required is to ensure the installation documents are filled in and certified BEFORE commissioning the equipment. Not our rules, its the law.

The fire valve for instance, might be in the oil line. It might be connected using flared fittings, as BS5410 part 1 1997 requires, or it might have been done with compression fittings, which don't comply . If flared fittings have been used, the commissioning guy would be wise not to sign that's it's ok because he doesn't know the pipe was formed correctly, and there might be a crack starting. When it leaks, he has to fix it becausse he signed it was ok.

AlanE's option 2 applies.

The poor safety guy at Flixborough who, years ago, signed off the pipeline that blew up, ok'd it after being shown radiographs of the welded joints (he didn't know they were of some other joint). He was sent to prison (unjustly in my view).
 
Stop worrying, he says! Well Oilman, I am worried. Just noticed your comment about oil tanks and wonder what Building Control will think if they take an interest in mine.

It’s steel, tatty, but reasonably sound. It’s hard up against the back of the detatched garage (brick) and separated from the boundary fence (larch lap) by a squeeze-through gap. The other side is a drive / car park with a house at least 20 metres away.

Looking at Uncle JP’s website, there is a reference to “tank less than 760mm from boundary”. It seems I should build a 30-minute fire wall shielding the tank from next door. This is crazy - there isn’t even room. More to the point, there’s nothing to catch fire the other side except possibly a few parked cars.

Any thoughts, Oilman? Will Building Control want to see the tank? Isn’t this overkill? How many cases of people / property being roasted by a blazing domestic tank do you read about in a lifetime?
Paul
 

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