Improving on TRV

[sophiecentaur]

What is the result you want? I've met very few who are unhappy with a traditional heating system, most simply don't care about the degrees, they just want to feel warm and not be too hot.

Remote sensor TRVs are only used when the radiator is boxed in. Standard TRV systems work fine, why is it that you think they do not?

Well, that's fair enough for someone who doesn't care. People will put up with all sorts when they don't know better.
My main problem is that I have a wood burner which puts out 5kW when it's working hard (with cheap fuel). I need the downstairs radiators to back off automatically, according to how much extra heat is coming in. A set of large windows could be producing the same effect on a sunny day.
I will not accept that TRVs "work fine" until I read some evidence about what they actually do. If they really do work that well then there will be evidence and that's what I'm asking for. Failing that, I will have to go for a remote sensor that's placed in a suitable spot in the room. (Temperature is not the same everywhere in a room.)
Let's face it, nearly every home has one room thermostat and many homes use zones. That's for the same reason that I want a remote sensor.
Are there really no published figures?

 

[hazetimesfive]

figures on what? TRV duty cycle in relation to room temperature? you seem a bit pedantic, ideally you would want the sensor hanging in the middle of the room at about 1.4 metres, let me know when you've done that and we can discuss more.

The temperature is not the same everywhere, period, that will never change no matter what controls you have, so how are you planning to tackle that given your picky nature with specific degrees.

Traditional TRVs will work well for your situation, I guarantee it.

 

[hazetimesfive]

The control is proportional, and not just on/off .

only to a degree, no pun intended.

It's a wax capsule just like in a thermostatic shower, the reaction is definite, @ temperature X the valve will be at position Y.
There is no data on this because it makes little real world difference, possibly an aperture size could be given at a specific temperature but the overall system design would have a greater effect on this, pipe sizing, pump sizing to name just two.

 

[Aquaheat]

Do not feed the trolls!!

This has all the signs of Dr Drivel, Water systems etc etc account created over 4 years ago and only now chooses to post and try and prove that they/he/she knows more than anyone that offers advice to a supposed simple question.

Move on and read the General Discussion forum. I hate to say it but it will be more entertaining than this pr1ck.

Jon

 

[sophiecentaur]

Do not feed the trolls!!

This has all the signs of Dr Drivel, Water systems etc etc account created over 4 years ago and only now chooses to post and try and prove that they/he/she knows more than anyone that offers advice to a supposed simple question.

Move on and read the General Discussion forum. I hate to say it but it will be more entertaining than this pr1ck.

Jon

And using insulting language suddenly puts you in the right, does it?
If people don't know the proper answer then why not say so? I imagine some of the contributors to this forum actually get paid for 'advising' people. Customers suffer and don't even realise it when the expert doesn't know his stuff.

 

[hazetimesfive]

Can't say I've ever made a customer suffer per se, well they keep coming back at least.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Do not feed the trolls!!

This has all the signs of Dr Drivel, Water systems etc etc account created over 4 years ago and only now chooses to post and try and prove that they/he/she knows more than anyone that offers advice to a supposed simple question.

Move on and read the General Discussion forum. I hate to say it but it will be more entertaining than this pr1ck.

Jon

And using insulting language suddenly puts you in the right, does it?
If people don't know the proper answer then why not say so? I imagine some of the contributors to this forum actually get paid for 'advising' people. Customers suffer and don't even realise it when the expert doesn't know his stuff.

I wonder if you've actually read your own posts?

Have you any idea at all how a trv works?

 

[Agile]

The control is proportional, and not just on/off .

It's a wax capsule just like in a thermostatic shower, the reaction is definite, @ temperature X the valve will be at position Y.

The better quality TRVs like the Drayton TRV4 have a liquid filled sensor and respond within about 20 minutes compared with the cheap wax element ones which take more than twice as long.

In a normal installation the better TRVs are proportional and control the flow through the rad to be what is needed to provide the desired temperature.

But that does not happen very well with the cheap one because they do not respond quickly enough.

Tony

 

[sophiecentaur]

The control is proportional, and not just on/off .

It's a wax capsule just like in a thermostatic shower, the reaction is definite, @ temperature X the valve will be at position Y.

The better quality TRVs like the Drayton TRV4 have a liquid filled sensor and respond within about 20 minutes compared with the cheap wax element ones which take more than twice as long.

In a normal installation the better TRVs are proportional and control the flow through the rad to be what is needed to provide the desired temperature.

But that does not happen very well with the cheap one because they do not respond quickly enough.

Tony

At last. A bit of sensed knowledge. Interesting information about the TRV 4, too!
I would still appreciate some ideas as to the temperature variations in a room. A remote sensor could certainly respond much quicker than taking 20 minutes and the 'gain' in the feedback system would or could be as high as necessary. In fact, such a system could approach working 'properly' because more things are under the control of the designer.
Apart from one negative comment on the thread about the 'home' system, is there any actual experience about the reliability and performance of remote sensor systems?

Can't say I've ever made a customer suffer per se, well they keep coming back at least.

Unless you have measured the temperature fluctuations in a customer's home, how would you actually know? You probably do a great job of installing a reliable system that turns on and off and doesn't leak. Those are the most important things, of course. But I have one of those systems already and I just want to improve on it. I am amazed at the negative reaction that my request seems to have generated. It's almost as if forum members feel 'threatened' by questions about hard facts.

 

[Agile]

The standard TRV like the TRV4 can have a remote sensor about 1000 mm from the valve.

But its still the same liquid filled sensor, just spaced from the valve.

It will take exactly the same time to respond as the one on the radiator!

There is no point in the valve responding much quicker because the rad has a warm up time of about 10 min from cold and a cool down time of about 20 minutes.

Of course if you want to spend a lot of money ( for no real advantage ! ) then the electronic Honeywell Evohome TRV head will respond much quicker!

The makers like Drayton put a lot of effort into their designs and they work well. But they are not so cheap. Then there are the cheap wax based valves which have a long response time.

Tony

 

[shambolic]

Thanks for replying.
It would be nice if I could believe that but how can it be guaranteed, with the radiator right next to it and the hot water valve right underneath it? It must assume that the air circulation through the sensor is enough to make the room temperature dominate.
With respect, is there written evidence of the sort of performance you quote or is it just advertiser's figures? I have only ever dealt with the crude 1.2.3.4.5.Max style TRVs.
In any case, +- 1.5C is quite a wide range when it comes to the subjective effect around 21C and I really would like to be able to rely on something a bit better, that senses the room temperature from some distance away.
The present TRVs are Drayton TRV 4 models. Here's hoping there's a compatible alternative.

Are you serious?

I think this might be an old familiar face?

 

[shambolic]

Do not feed the trolls!!

This has all the signs of Dr Drivel, Water systems etc etc account created over 4 years ago and only now chooses to post and try and prove that they/he/she knows more than anyone that offers advice to a supposed simple question.

Move on and read the General Discussion forum. I hate to say it but it will be more entertaining than this pr1ck.

Jon

And using insulting language suddenly puts you in the right, does it?
If people don't know the proper answer then why not say so? I imagine some of the contributors to this forum actually get paid for 'advising' people. Customers suffer and don't even realise it when the expert doesn't know his stuff.

Read the first post and the posting style jumped out immediately.
Ps who gets paid for giving advice on here? I know I don't.

 

[Agile]

Its not Dr Drivel !

Its not his style.

He has not been here for about 3 4o 4 years now. He may not even still be alive for all we know!

You would know when he is around as he clings onto anything about thermal stores and always shows his location as London and sometimes mentions his own combi boiler. So a small flat I expect.

Tony

 

[sophiecentaur]

Do not feed the trolls!!

This has all the signs of Dr Drivel, Water systems etc etc account created over 4 years ago and only now chooses to post and try and prove that they/he/she knows more than anyone that offers advice to a supposed simple question.

Move on and read the General Discussion forum. I hate to say it but it will be more entertaining than this pr1ck.

Jon

And using insulting language suddenly puts you in the right, does it?
If people don't know the proper answer then why not say so? I imagine some of the contributors to this forum actually get paid for 'advising' people. Customers suffer and don't even realise it when the expert doesn't know his stuff.

Read the first post and the posting style jumped out immediately.
Ps who gets paid for giving advice on here? I know I don't.

Professionals are paid every day for advice and some of the responses here have been from 'professionals'. A true professional, advances their knowledge on a daily basis. It's only fair to customers.

I have never posted on this forum before but I am not surprised that others have been unimpressed by the style of some of your long standing members. My "style" is of someone who doesn't rely on 'say so' and who likes to work on actual evidence and references. That, to me, is a very reasonable attitude to life. It is a shame that some people on this forum seem more concerned about their sensitivity to implied criticism (there was none intended) than about getting to the bottom of a problem. I wonder why they bother to use a forum if they don't want to improve their knowledge and understanding of the subject. There have been a few useful bits of information for which I am grateful.

 

[ollski]

Why not phone the manufacturer and tell them your exact requirements to see if they produce a suitable product?