Insulating roofspace over downlighters - are hoods needed ?

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't understand the vitriolic hatred of down lighters on here. I've recently fitted three in our new bathroom and they light the room perfectly. They are correctly zoned bathroom lights and sealed to the ceiling.

How many watts in total?

Can you imagine how bright the room would be with the equivalent wattage of GLS lamps, or the equivalent wattage of properly designed fluorescent lighting?

And BTW; correctly zoned and sealed to the ceiling or not, they are not air-tight and you still need a sealed enclosure above them to comply with the Building Regulations. When you installed them, did you get Building Regulations approval first of all? If you did act lawfully, what did you say on your application would be the way you would comply with Part C and Part L?

So could we please not have any more 'rip em out' type posts and any constructive advice would be very appreciated.

Rip them out is the most constructive advice you can be given.

 

[Steve]

I also fail to understand the dislike of down lighters when properly installed.

Theres the issue! There is no way to correctly install them in an upstairs ceiling, without contravening one building regulation or another (spread of fire, moisture control, heat control etc), or severely shortening the life of the bulbs.

If you have down lighters and want to keep them and insulate over them then use Loftcaps. It doesn't matter if they cost more than the insulation (and mine didn't) if they do the required job does it?

They dont do the required job. They allow the heat to build up inside them to a level where the fitting starts to suffer, and the bulbs will not last as long as they should.

Next?

 

[bloxy]

They dont do the required job. They allow the heat to build up inside them to a level where the fitting starts to suffer, and the bulbs will not last as long as they should.

From The manufactures website ]http://www.aico.co.uk/firecap_loftcap.htm:

Building Regulations Approved Document L calls for a solution to allow uninterrupted coverage of thermal insulation in loft spaces, ensuring minimal heat loss through the ceiling.

Building Regulations Approved Document C, as well as the NHBC and other insurers, call for a vapour seal between the living space and the loft space in order to prevent condensation forming on roof timbers and causing premature rotting.

If you are fitting downlights into a ceiling,which penetrates a loft space, you are likely to have a problem in meeting both the Building Regulations Parts C & L and the Insurer's requirements. Fitting Loftcap covers over the downlights addresses both problems in one easy step.

Fire or acoustic insulation is not usually required in a loft void; Loftcaps are therefore designed simply to provide an effective vapour and thermal seal. Manufactured from inert mineral fibres, Loftcaps are both non-combustible and non electrically conductive whilst being lightweight and rigid enough to support loft insulation. What's more they're simplicity itself to install and will not cause the light fitting to overheat.
Loftcap has been approved by the NHBC and the Lighting Association for use in these applications.

Sounds like a solution to me, but I'm just a punter who wants downlights in my bathroom because i like them!

 

[Lower]

Rip them out is the most constructive advice you can be given.

Quite frankly, its not the slightest bit constructive or helpful.

I'm perfectly happy with 150w of light from my down lighters and i'm not the slightest bit interested if there are more effective ways of lighting the bathroom. Its the appearance that counts in this case.

As my downlighters replaced downlighters than had been fitted in the bathroom for longer than i've lived there (10 years +), this replacement was a maintenance item so i have/had absolutely no intention of informing building control.

You can spout building regs and try and browbeat me with your knowledge into taking the down lighters out, but its not going to happen. So seeing as you feel the need to make your point, once you've made your point once, please butt out.

My down lighters are fire rated, sealed to the ceiling and suitably zoned for a bathroom. As such they have a removable bezel which might not be perfectly sealed but isn't far off so moisture migration shouldn't be an issue.

But insulation over the top is. Hence mine and the OP's question.

Any further useful advice would be and is very much appreciated.

 

[aptsys]

...As such they have a removable bezel which might not be perfectly sealed but isn't far off so moisture migration shouldn't be an issue...

You are correct. All of the types I've seen with the glass front have a proper silicone or neoprene seal that prevents moisture migration. All you have to worry about is ensuring adequate clearance between the fitting and your insulation.

 

[Lower]

Had a chat this evening with friend who is a contracts manager for Barratt Homes and asked if they fit downlighters in upstairs rooms and if so how they deal with the insulation issue.

His answer was that yes they do fit downlighters and they basically build a plasterboard box over the top of the light fitting with plenty of volume in that they then insulate over the top.

If its good enough for the NHBC and building controls on a commercial scale its good enough for me.

So i propose to bridge the gap between the two joists with plasterboard and then cut two fold down flaps to fill in the sides. That should give plenty of volume around the light so that it doesn't overheat but protect it from the insulation above.

 

[bloxy]

So i propose to bridge the gap between the two joists with plasterboard and then cut two fold down flaps to fill in the sides. That should give plenty of volume around the light so that it doesn't overheat but protect it from the insulation above.

Or just fit some Loft Caps at 7 quid each it's a lot easier!

 

[Lower]

So i propose to bridge the gap between the two joists with plasterboard and then cut two fold down flaps to fill in the sides. That should give plenty of volume around the light so that it doesn't overheat but protect it from the insulation above.

Or just fit some Loft Caps at 7 quid each it's a lot easier!

You're right, it would be easier. But as i have 3 down lighters to cover i can do that with a single sheet of plaster board which is a fair bit cheaper than £21

I can also create a fair bit more volume around the light to so it doesn't get so hot.

 

[mikeyw]

Grief guys really opened up a hornets nest here.

I like downlighters in bathrooms they look modern & stylish.

Yes it's a ballache above the ceiling with all the farting around to seal, cap, insulate safely etc etc.

I have 4 to cap and with delivery it's nearly £50 which is money i'd rather not have to blow on this. If I have some spare plasterboard in the garage i may just knock up some boxes and seal them over the fittings.

As it's a bathroom the lights are probably only on for 20mins max in one go - is this long enough for heat to build up to significant levels ?...i guess it probably is....so best to be safe.

 

[Lower]

blah blah blah

Forums are great for getting help until you get some plonker who thinks he knows best and won't rest until you tell him he's right. The other great thing about forums is the ignore button.

I asked nicely, but i'm not going to get into an argument with you. Nor am i going to accept your point of view.

Ignore button pressed.

Bye.

 

[Lower]

Grief guys really opened up a hornets nest here.

I like downlighters in bathrooms they look modern & stylish.

Yes it's a ballache above the ceiling with all the farting around to seal, cap, insulate safely etc etc.

I have 4 to cap and with delivery it's nearly £50 which is money i'd rather not have to blow on this. If I have some spare plasterboard in the garage i may just knock up some boxes and seal them over the fittings.

As it's a bathroom the lights are probably only on for 20mins max in one go - is this long enough for heat to build up to significant levels ?...i guess it probably is....so best to be safe.

They do get very hot and i'd want to allow for the occasion that someone leaves the light on all night. So i'm planning to leave quite a decent void around the light in the plasterboard box. A good 400mm around the light should be sufficent and is a convenient size for the box seeing as that is my joist spacing too.

 

[vik2001]

i was in a similar situation, i had new insulation laid in the loft which had downlighters. The nICC guy said before he gave me a certificate i had to cover them, and advised me to make a box over them , made out of plasterboard and drill some holes in them for ventilation.

so i got some plasterboard, made them into a box and places over the downligters. i drilled some holes at the top of them to let air escape, then laid the insulation up to these boxes (u could lay over them). he then checked them, said it was fine and gave the certificate.

plasterboard sheet cost £4 from wickes, and saved me the trouble of using expensive hoods. he said they were just as good.

 

[Lower]

i was in a similar situation, i had new insulation laid in the loft which had downlighters. The nICC guy said before he gave me a certificate i had to cover them, and advised me to make a box over them , made out of plasterboard and drill some holes in them for ventilation.

so i got some plasterboard, made them into a box and places over the downligters. i drilled some holes at the top of them to let air escape, then laid the insulation up to these boxes (u could lay over them). he then checked them, said it was fine and gave the certificate.

plasterboard sheet cost £4 from wickes, and saved me the trouble of using expensive hoods. he said they were just as good.

Sounds like the consensus from those who actually police building regs then is that this is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Thank you.

 

[mikeyw]

i was in a similar situation, i had new insulation laid in the loft which had downlighters. The nICC guy said before he gave me a certificate i had to cover them, and advised me to make a box over them , made out of plasterboard and drill some holes in them for ventilation.

so i got some plasterboard, made them into a box and places over the downligters. i drilled some holes at the top of them to let air escape, then laid the insulation up to these boxes (u could lay over them). he then checked them, said it was fine and gave the certificate.

plasterboard sheet cost £4 from wickes, and saved me the trouble of using expensive hoods. he said they were just as good.

Perfect - sounds like amongst all the hot air on this thread we have arrived at a cost effective regs approved solution - well done all

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You mean the solution identified here?