Is my pump backwards?

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I posted a thread a while ago about strange boiler temperature behaviour in my S-plan heating and hot water tank system, and I concluded that water was flowing through my boiler backwards. This was definitely the case, however I wasn't sure if the pump was simply backwards or the boiler pipes were switched. I've tried changing both and got some weird results.

I initially had delta T at the boiler of about 8-10C, along with strange behaviour (not relevant for this thread), however after flipping the pump I saw 18-24C depending on load which I thought was more in line with what I was seeing. But then I was collecting lots of bubbles from somewhere when the hot water was on, so I started to wonder if the pump was now pushing water through the system the wrong way round and maybe the air vents weren't doing their job. So I put the pump back the original way and swapped the boiler connections. However that has led to the boiler delta T going back down to 8-10C. In all cases the pump was on low or medium - the difference between the two settings is slight. So the question is - which way round should the water be flowing?

I've sketched out my airing cupboard below as it is now, which is how it was originally installed. There are four pipes going into the floor, and I cannot work out what they all are or why there are four of them.

Airing cupboard.jpg


Since the boiler was able to generate a dT of 20C or more when the flow was reversed through the pipes, I don't know why it wouldn't be able to now. The water is flowing the correct way through the boiler in both cases. The only thing I can think of is that hot water is somehow being diverted to the return of the boiler without going through any radiators or the cylinder heating coil. Pipes C and D always get warm, but I don't know if this is conduction or not. The return from the hot water cylinder does get warm though even when the HW is off and the CH is on. I thought this must be because the HW motorized valve is leaking but now I'm not so sure. I have replaced the ABV just in case that was the problem - it wasn't.

- Why does the pipe after the ABV split into two? Where do they go?

- Which pipe is connected to the boiler and which to the rads - A or B?

- Is that picture correct, or should it be pumping the other way round?
 
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A from boiler, pumping in to motorised valves, B to radiators.
 
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Basically this, no AAVs or bypass shown,

1672771432208.png
 
So it's the right way round? Why is dT so much greater if the flow is reversed? Is dT of 10C a problem?
 
Is dT of 10C a problem?
Not a problem if you are comfortable.

I find dT, flow rates, balancing etc. are only issues in very few circumstances.

Is "A" from the boiler connected to the the boiler flow?
 
Is "A" from the boiler connected to the the boiler flow?
There's no way of knowing. It goes down through two floors, and not straight down either it dog-legs under the floor.

Not a problem if you are comfortable.
I'm comfortable, but I'd be more comfortable with a lower gas bill! I mean it's not high but it could always be lower.

I think I have worked out what the extra mystery pipe is. D is the return to the boiler, and C can only be the return from the three rads on the top floor joining the return flow. It must be flowing up from the floor not down like my diagram. There's no other explanation I can think of.
 
Can you post the make/model of your boiler, first thing IMO is to identify which pipe is the flow from the boiler, once that is identified and assuming its A then the pump is orientated correctly, ie pumping (downwards) towards the motorised valves, either C or D must be the return to the boiler, if the return is D then C should be the return from the upstairs rads?. The expansion vessel should really be connected in just before the pump suction but as long as the cold boiler pressure is > 0.5/0.75bar then shouldn't cause any problems with air ingress, was your system converted from a OV system to a pressurised one sometime?.

Edit: Your post above seems logical, just identify once and for all from the boiler specs which is the flow.
 
I think I have worked out what the extra mystery pipe is. D is the return to the boiler, and C can only be the return from the three rads on the top floor joining the return flow. It must be flowing up from the floor not down like my diagram. There's no other explanation I can think of.
The cylinder return should be the last connection to the boiler to stop reverse circulation. I don't think what you surmise is correct, but who knows.
 
Easy to tell which is the flow - start with the system cold, and disconnect the pump or put the switch between speeds so it doesn't run. Switch boiler on, let it get hot. Feel pipes which get warm when you turn pump on - in bursts if necessary.
 
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Yes.. of course... I'll try that when it cools down. A should be the flow, shouldn't it?

I can also test my theory, I think, by closing all the rads on the top floor. If pipe D stays cold, and then gets warm quickly when I fully open a rad, then I'll know.

Can you post the make/model of your boiler
Ideal ICOS HE 12. I know which pipe is the flow out of the boiler - the one on the right - and I know it was backwards originally because the one on the left got hot.

as long as the cold boiler pressure is > 0.5/0.75bar
It's 1.5 bar currently with the pump off. I increased it from the usual 1 bar to see if it would get rid of the bubbles by making them smaller and less buoyant, so they could get carried away from the pump. Seemed to work. Should I reduce it to 0.75 bar?

One other thing regarding bubbles - I'm fairly sure the diaphragm in that expansion vessel is bust. It's still pressurised though and about half full.

The cylinder return should be the last connection to the boiler to stop reverse circulation.
Yeah I've been reading about reverse circulation, and I don't recall having noticed warm radiators when the hot water is on during the summer.
 
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Keep the boiler pressure at 1.5bar cold.
If the "diaphragm in that expansion vessel is bust" then the boiler pressure will/should rise rapidly while heating up and lift the PRV at 3.0bar, what is the boiler pressure when hot?.
 

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