Life on Titan?

[lifesagasman]

you're basing that on carbon life though, who's to say that it's not based on another element on an alien planet..

Do they still have MOT's on planets with silicon life forms ?

does Pammy need an MOT then?

 

[EddieM]

surely it could be based on any chemical element? given the right conditions?

No. it couldn't. Nor could it be silicon based.

 

[ColJack]

you can't just say no, you have to give us reasons why..

given that there are a nearly endless number of planets out there, don't you think that it's possible for elements other than those we know to exist?

who's to say that you need carbon for life..

in just a few hundred years we will have silicon based lif on this planet, the computers are getting smarter and once they achieve a level of intelegence that constitutes conciousness, then they'd be classed as alive..

 

[Lincsbodger]

you can't just say no, you have to give us reasons why..

given that there are a nearly endless number of planets out there, don't you think that it's possible for elements other than those we know to exist?

who's to say that you need carbon for life..

in just a few hundred years we will have silicon based lif on this planet, the computers are getting smarter and once they achieve a level of intelegence that constitutes conciousness, then they'd be classed as alive..

the requirment for carbon is based on the requirement that you can make proteins and amino acids, and that it forms many other substances easily. Carbon chemistry is an entire science on its own. The only other element that comes anywhere to being able to form substances that can perform the same functions, in enough variants, is silicon. Your unlikely to find life not based on either of these two, and if you do its life utterly unlike we can imagine.

The point at which Artificial Intelligence acquires self awareness and the point it acquires consciousness are two different things. Theres only us, chimps, whales, dolphins and possibly gorillas are self aware. A lot more creatures are conscious, eg cats and rats.

'Alive' is an entirely different can of worms. To be alive you must possess most of the following abilities:

1. Homeostasis: the ability to control your internal functions, such as body temerature
2. Organization: made of standard units such as cells
3. Metabolism: The ability to convert matter to energy to fuel other functions
4. Growth: the ability to increase body part sizes proportionally
5. Adaptation: The ability to evolve to function better
6. Response to stimuli:
7. Reproduction: The ability to create the next generation.

It will be a long time before even self aware and conscious AI is alive by the above definition.

 

[EddieM]

The chemistry of silicon, is nothing like it's vertical neighbour carbon. There is no other form of chemistry know to man that can form the complex molecules that carbon can form. Silicon based life is a no goer.

There are no known conditions in which other elements can form complex structures needed for life.

 

[Space cat]

surely it could be based on any chemical element? given the right conditions?

Sorry but no. You can write off the inert gases straight away, along with anything beyond bismuth. (The 'radioactive airborne virus' is strictly sci-fi.) It isn't even correct to say that life on Earth is carbon based. I don't know of any organism that can even feed on pure carbon (maybe some fungus can do it). Life as we know it is built mostly from amino acids and they contain three other elements. You might just as well say that it's nitrogen based. There are certainly bacteria that consume nitrogen.

If you're looking for the one ingredient that's essential to all living processes it must be water. This stuff should, by all rights, be a gas at room temperature, like its much heavier relative hydrogen sulphide. It's only a liquid because of its highly polarized molecule and this same property is key to many biochemical reactions. Moreover, because of the way stars work, there's a lot of it sloshing around the universe.

The laws of chemistry are pretty well understood these days under many conditions of temperature, pressure, pH, etc. Life must contain large, complex molecules to carry its genetic code and the only ones I know are based around carbon-nitrogen or silicon-oxygen. Chemists please feel free to suggest alternatives.

Life must also be built from molecules that are easily broken up again and, as I pointed out earlier, silicates fail this test. It's damn near impossible to break the silicon-oxygen bond at room temperature without resorting to hydrofluoric acid (or maybe ammonium fluoride) and so, once formed, they are, quite literally, set in stone.

But that's on our planet. Put yourself in the place of an alien on another planet with very different conditions. You know about amino acids and you can make them in your lab, but only at very low temperatures. They disintegrate at your room temperature and have very low radiation tolerance. Would you consider them a viable building block for life on another planet?

 

[EddieM]

Silicon can only really form silicones, not complex structures, yes life as we know it depends upon Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen (not too much please!!) and of course good old H20, which is as said as rather strange and magical substance.

 

[ColJack]

The point at which Artificial Intelligence acquires self awareness and the point it acquires consciousness are two different things. Theres only us, chimps, whales, dolphins and possibly gorillas are self aware. A lot more creatures are conscious, eg cats and rats.

I was lead to believe that self awareness IS conciousness..
how does that saying go? " I think, threfore I am"
Without self awareness it's just instinct..

'Alive' is an entirely different can of worms. To be alive you must possess most of the following abilities:

1. Homeostasis: the ability to control your internal functions, such as body temerature
2. Organization: made of standard units such as cells
3. Metabolism: The ability to convert matter to energy to fuel other functions
4. Growth: the ability to increase body part sizes proportionally
5. Adaptation: The ability to evolve to function better
6. Response to stimuli:
7. Reproduction: The ability to create the next generation.

should be easy enough..
1. machines and computers already regulate their temperatures by using fans and reducing voltages to unused parts temporarily.
2. most machines are made of standard parts, supercomputers use multi-processor networks, they're kind of like brain cells..
3. easy enough.. hydrogen cells, batteries etc all fall under that category. there are also bio-fuel cells being developed that use dirty waste water and bacteria to create electricity ( think along the lines of "mr fusion" from back to the future, throw bio-matter into it, mash it up and feed it to the bacteria. )
4. easy enough, design build and fit new parts on an arm to change it's function, that's growth of a sort..
5. the above covers this as well, change tools and parts to suit a specific function.
6. well this is a no brainer.. there are all sorts of robots out there that do this already, from tiny ant bots some guy made that avoid walls and each other by using ultrasound, to some that recognise shapes and sounds and pick up the thing you ask them to.
7. robots already do manufacturing tasks so it can be said that they already reproduce....

It will be a long time before even self aware and conscious AI is alive by the above definition.

seems to me that they already can meet all of your criteria..

you also have a different criteria for life than we were taught at school..
or at least differing terminology..

we were taught MERRING..

Movement
Excretion
Respiration
Reproduction
Irritability
Nutrition
Growth.

 

[Lincsbodger]

should be easy enough..
1. machines and computers already regulate their temperatures by using fans and reducing voltages to unused parts temporarily.

so can a volcanic geyser of a fan oven, there definitely not alive

2. most machines are made of standard parts, supercomputers use multi-processor networks, they're kind of like brain cells..

Hmm yes, but a cell can live on its own, a fan cant...When we say standard parts, were talking at a cellular or crystalline level.

3. easy enough.. hydrogen cells, batteries etc all fall under that category. there are also bio-fuel cells being developed that use dirty waste water and bacteria to create electricity ( think along the lines of "mr fusion" from back to the future, throw bio-matter into it, mash it up and feed it to the bacteria. )

yes, but the entity has to be able to be generate energy from incoming matter and eject the waste.............

4. easy enough, design build and fit new parts on an arm to change it's function, that's growth of a sort..

I could have an operation to give me a third arm, thats not growth. Can it grow a fan from metal crystals?

5. the above covers this as well, change tools and parts to suit a specific function.

Abd if the ambient environment rose 20 degress and became more acidic, could the machine make a new generation adapted better to suit ?

6. well this is a no brainer.. there are all sorts of robots out there that do this already, from tiny ant bots some guy made that avoid walls and each other by using ultrasound, to some that recognise shapes and sounds and pick up the thing you ask them to.

true, but even bacteria can do it, its a real basic requirement

7. robots already do manufacturing tasks so it can be said that they already reproduce....

No, reproduce as it create the next generation by its own bodily functions, be it cell splitting to vivaporous reproduction.

It will be a long time before even self aware and conscious AI is alive by the above definition.

seems to me that they already can meet all of your criteria..

you also have a different criteria for life than we were taught at school..
or at least differing terminology..

yes but teaching in the 14th century wasnt as advanced as ours.......

 

[Space cat]

Silicon can only really form silicones, not complex structures

A geologist might take issue with that. But you are forgetting something. Most of the complex carbon compounds on our planet only exist because life evolved. Indeed, the original definition of an organic compound was one that could only be made by some kind of 'life force'. I suppose you could say that those early chemists predicted the existence of enzymes.

We now know that the definition was a false one but, even so, just how many 'organic' compounds can we make, starting only from elements. Be that alien again. You have all the equipment you need to simulate the freezing conditions here on Earth - and a mass spectrometer too - but you don't know what you're looking for.

You know about methane and you've managed to make some other hydrocarbons, including benzene. You know about ammonia too. The ammonium cyanate didn't turn out quite as expected but you did manage to synthesize an amino acid. Now this is clever stuff because it polymerizes - you've stumbled on the equivalent of acetoxysilane - but it's not exactly life is it. How could such a molecule replicate?

How do you rate your chances of making a carbohydrate? Not formaldehyde; that's too easy. You need ribose at least. How about indole, or amylase, or adenosine triphosphate? I suggest that your chances of making anything remotely like DNA are zero. Would you conclude that amino acid based life is impossible?

 

[homes]

Silicon can only really form silicones, not complex structures

A geologist might take issue with that. But you are forgetting something. Most of the complex carbon compounds on our planet only exist because life evolved. Indeed, the original definition of an organic compound was one that could only be made by some kind of 'life force'. I suppose you could say that those early chemists predicted the existence of enzymes.

We now know that the definition was a false one but, even so, just how many 'organic' compounds can we make, starting only from elements. Be that alien again. You have all the equipment you need to simulate the freezing conditions here on Earth - and a mass spectrometer too - but you don't know what you're looking for.

You know about methane and you've managed to make some other hydrocarbons, including benzene. You know about ammonia too. The ammonium cyanate didn't turn out quite as expected but you did manage to synthesize an amino acid. Now this is clever stuff because it polymerizes - you've stumbled on the equivalent of acetoxysilane - but it's not exactly life is it. How could such a molecule replicate?

How do you rate your chances of making a carbohydrate? Not formaldehyde; that's too easy. You need ribose at least. How about indole, or amylase, or adenosine triphosphate? I suggest that your chances of making anything remotely like DNA are zero. Would you conclude that amino acid based life is impossible?

I can smell Methane.

 

[Lincsbodger]

Silicon can only really form silicones, not complex structures

A geologist might take issue with that. But you are forgetting something. Most of the complex carbon compounds on our planet only exist because life evolved. Indeed, the original definition of an organic compound was one that could only be made by some kind of 'life force'. I suppose you could say that those early chemists predicted the existence of enzymes.

Nah, you utterly utterly wrong.

We have at least 5 planets in our solar system composed of nothing but hydrocarbons, and none of them have life. Last year the amino acid glycine was found in samples from comet Wild 2 brought back to Earth by the American Stardust probe.

Life on Earth originated in the hard ultraviolet and highly irradiated environment of interstellar space.

 

[Nige F]

2 scottish Crabs living on a Jocks genitals under his jock " Aye laddie -if oor host wasnae a Tight `un wi` the Carbolic roond his bollicks - we`d have nae hoom - Lang mae his Lingham Reek " So there you have it - Life on Tight` un

 

[ColJack]

I hate multi nested quotes, so I've taken my comments out, see above for details if you care..

so can a volcanic geyser of a fan oven, there definitely not alive

some would argue otherwise with regards to volcano's as being part of Gia's ( that's earth spirit or something ) temperature regulation, but in general you're right, but it needs to satisfy all of the requirements to be alive so claiming that something that satisfies just one can't be alive is like saying that something with tyres isn't a car. well no but some things that have tyres are cars..

Hmm yes, but a cell can live on its own, a fan cant...When we say standard parts, were talking at a cellular or crystalline level.

if you want celular level then lets talk transistors, they are the single "cells" that make up a processor and are interconnected to for networks and pathways much like the cells of a brain are interconnected

yes, but the entity has to be able to be generate energy from incoming matter and eject the waste.............

how is an energy source derived from bacteria any different than a digestive system of a person? we take in solid food, break it down with enzymes, acid and bacteria ( l.cassei imunitas or whatever the "friendly bacteria" in our digestive tract is.. ) and then absorb nutrients that our cells turn into energy, the bio-energy cell just does the conversion in a central location rather than local to each cell, but there's nothing to say that a liquid nutrient line couldn't be installed to supply multiple localised bio-energy cells within a robot body.

I could have an operation to give me a third arm, thats not growth. Can it grow a fan from metal crystals?

the can grow silicon crystals for making new processors.

Abd if the ambient environment rose 20 degress and became more acidic, could the machine make a new generation adapted better to suit ?

very easily, easier and faster than nature can in fact.. it would take many generations for biological life to adapt to severe condition change like that, but a machine could design all of the required changes into the next generation

true, but even bacteria can do it, its a real basic requirement

so perhaps they should leave it out then..
would a person who is blind, deaf, no sense of smell, taste or touch be considered as not alive then simply because they didn't have sensory input to react to?

No, reproduce as it create the next generation by its own bodily functions, be it cell splitting to vivaporous reproduction.

you didn't specify "by celular division", they do reproduce, just not by biological means..

 

[Space cat]

a machine could design all of the required changes into the next generation

-- then retrofit them into the current generation.

This is one area where machines really win over biological life forms like ourselves. They see a need for change, they redesign themselves to suit that change and then they modify themselves. No random mutations for them. Machines evolve but not like we do because they are immortal. As long as there is a software back-up they can be rebuilt from scratch. At the very least they will live until their luck runs out.

That raises an interesting point; would natural selection apply to machines? Some of the materials they need (like indium) are in short supply. I can see at least two possibilities here.

1) They form a Borg style collective in which all machines share a common program. In this case they'll act as one in making best use of what they can find.

2) Individual machines compete for limited resources? In effect this means that the best programs come out on top. A machine war is a distinct possibility. This could be bad news for us - and organic life in general - if we get caught in the cross-fire.