Loft conversion permitted development gone wrong - HELP!!!!!

[e11woody]

OK, my architect has got me into a real mess.

He drew up plans for Planning Permission for a loft conversion on a terraced house as I wanted to go over 40m3. When the council came out to view it, they explained how it couldn't be allowed as due to the rules. I was advised to just make it smaller and do it through Permitted Development.

So I withdrew the application and put one in for PD instead.

My architect (who is also my agent with the council) told me that we were good to start building under PD as the council had given us the green light and paperwork would follow on.

Work is almost finished on loft conversion. Suddenly, different woman from council has turned up (who has taken over my case), and told us that if we had followed the plans they are all wrong. She had told the architect two weeks earlier that his plans were wrong and he has not informed me. The volume calculations might be out (but only just) putting it slightly over 40m3. But more crucially, he has drawn the plans with us building right up to the eves and not allowing a 20cm set back which is now required (new legislation that came in some time this year I believe).

Have met with council. They want us to correct work. So rip out the ensuite bathroom, pull out two wall sections and rebuild with the correct set back from eves before refitting bathroom

So...

My question is this. Does anyone have experience of appealing, enforcement, etc with regards to this kind of stuff? Clearly we have a case for taking the architect to court (and probably calling people from the council as witnesses too). We have only just broken the rules (and through no fault of our own as we were following professional advice). If we were to appeal, and maybe force the council to take enforcement action, would they do that or would it really not be worth their time and effort for such a minor breach?

Am also just trying to avoid having to go through litigation with the architect if possible. However much I believe we've got a good chance of winning to recoup costs of putting right the work (for getting the plans wrong in the first place, and then for not telling us there was a problem and letting us carry on roofing the place, fitting bathrooms, etc), I just haven't got the energy to go through it right now after going through the building work.

Any help VERY gratefully received!!!!!!!!!!

 

[spongobongo]

How much over the 40m3 have you gone?

Does the Council have a planning policy on dormer extensions? It may be that the Council - when it actually has control over such extensions - tries to resist dormers.

The Council will only take enforcement action where it considers expedient to do so. It's unlikely to issue an enforcement notice in a situation where it is likely to grant permission for a retrospective application, where there are no neighbour complaints, where other neighbouring properties have similar sized and detailed dormers, and where the Council is ultimately unlikely to win a planning appeal.

I've never heard of a planning rule requiring a 20cm setback from the eaves. Might be a building regs issue but the two are not related.

I'd be happy to take a look at the plans if you can post a planning application reference number and the Council involved. You could do it as a PM if you prefer.

As for the case against the architect, it sounds like a classic case of professional misconduct. There's no such thing as a green light from the Council "with the paperwork to follow". The only time you should proceed with the work is when you have the planning permission in your hands. And then you stick to the approved plans.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I've never heard of a planning rule requiring a 20cm setback from the eaves. Might be a building regs issue but the two are not related.

No its pretty clear that for PD you need to set the dormer at least 20cm back from the original external wall, always has been since PD was introduced lsat year.

Again the 40m3 rule is quite clear, loft conversions bigger than that will need planning permission.

What has the council said they will do if you just put a planning application in for the works as they are currently built?

Only by trying the patience of your local authority will you know how serious they are with regards to enforcing you to put it right. You cannot appeal against something for which you have not applied for in the first place.

Its not very clear exactly who said what to whom and when between yourself, your architect and the council to be honest and that would help in understanding the problem.

 

[e11woody]

Thanks for that.

No my council are fine about dormers. It's the volume and the settting back from the eaves they are bothered about now.

I have done everything by the book with them. Have tried to do everything they asked as I know it's not worth messing them round. Some people do daft things like try to raise the ridge to gain head height. I've done everything by the book.

We have been told to get new plans drawn up which they are more than willing to check. The woman at the council wants us to do it under a new case number though, cos if it goes through on the existing case (which we still can for another two weeks) it will "mess up her statistics which she is not willing to do that"!!!

I'm going to try to get it forced through on the existing case no as it has the entire history, including any incompetence from the previous council officer who has been taken off my case.

It's all permitted development as it's under 40m3. If we have gone over, it would be only by maybe 1 or 2m3, that's all. It's not like I've built the Hanging Gardens of Babylon!!

This planning legislation about the setting back seems to be really new. Apparently, the conversion would have passed a few months ago. Now instead of rainwater running straight from the dormer straight into the gutters, it hits 20cm of roof and runs off instead.

Oh and to top it all, it turns out the architect is in fact NOT an architect. He passes himself off as one but is just a draftsman who knows about building regulations (in theory!). In fact, he used to work at the council that I'm having problems with.

I'm currently trying to find out if I can compel the woman from the council to be a witness if my builder and I take action against the "architect".

 

[e11woody]

I initially tried to do a planning application instead of PD. I was told that for PP instead of PD, you have to build in from your neighbours' party walls by up to 1m which is pointless in a terrace. That's why we withdrew that application and put in one for PD instead.

As for who said what to whom, I really am quite at a loss right now. It sounds to me like the "architect" was dealing with a former colleague and so not doing things by the book. Now a different person is involved, it's all gone wrong.

What is perfectly clear though is that he did nothing when told. Nearly two weeks ago he was called into the council office and told his plans were wrong for PD. He apparently admitted the calculations were probably wrong to the officer. He then did nothing whatsoever. He didn't contact me to tell me the problem, he hasn't submitted new plans as instructed by the officer. He has just gone into hiding as he has made such a mess of it.

I wish I'd known the PD required the setting back. Trouble is I thought by employing a professional, he would know about things like that. After all, that's what they are employed for!!

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

It's all permitted development as it's under 40m3. If we have gone over, it would be only by maybe 1 or 2m3, that's all. It's not like I've built the Hanging Gardens of Babylon!!

This planning legislation about the setting back seems to be really new. Apparently, the conversion would have passed a few months ago. Now instead of rainwater running straight from the dormer straight into the gutters, it hits 20cm of roof and runs off instead.

The rules are rules unfortunately, councils will unlikely budge on them as it will give Mrs Smith four doors up from you justification to do the same. It is not a new rule, as previously mentioned it has been part of PD since Oct 08 http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonloftconversion/

 

[e11woody]

No I don't mean it's a new rule to PD. What I mean is that the setting back thing has only been needed recently (obviously since PD came in).

I understand that's exactly why the council can't just allow it to go through. That's what they said today when we met with them.

What I'm trying to discover is the likelihood of them now taking action. If I were to appeal, would they just turn it down?

If that's the case and we go to enforcement, would they press on through enforcement, and legal action for such a minor thing? At what stage would they think it's just not worth it?

They themselves have said that we have been the victims of dodgy drawings so they can see what's happened and sympathise with us but say they can't just approve it for exactly the reason you gave.

I'm just trying to work out whether we pull down what's been built (at great expense and have to sue the "architect") or whether there is any chance that if we appeal and appeal that we might be allowed to keep it. If it wasn't finished I would have happily backtracked, but it's just been finished right down to the fitting out of internal bathrooms.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

As already stated, only by trying the patience of your local authority will you know how serious they are with regards to enforcing you to put it right. Nobody can answer that except the council. All you can do is see what action they take, if any, sorry.

 

[spongobongo]

No its pretty clear that for PD you need to set the dormer at least 20cm back from the original external wall, always has been since PD was introduced lsat year.

Yep. You got me.

Again the 40m3 rule is quite clear, loft conversions bigger than that will need planning permission.

Never disputed that. My point was that a 5m3 breach is more likely to be enforced against than 0.5m3 breach.

As for the remedy, you have three options:

1) Make an application for planning permission to retain the works as carried out.

2) Take the advice of the planning officer and carry out the works within the scope of your PD rights.

3) Call the Council's bluff and see if they take enforcement action.

If you choose option 3 the first step would normally be for the Council to invite you to make an application for planning permission. If your dormer is of such an objectionable size that the Council is unlikely to grant permission, they'll serve you with and an enforcement notice. At that stage, you then get the choice to appeal against the notice or to remedy the breach of planning control by taking carry out the instructions in the enforcement notice.

If you want a good night's sleep I'd choose option 2 and then take legal action against your architect. You have dispensed with his services, haven't you?