Loft lighting - one switch, two lights. Power to switch 1st.

[Swanster]

Hi all,

Any help/advice/criticism that can be offered in relation to the below will be greatly received and taken on board...

I have recently attempted to install two baton lamp holders controlled by one switch in my loft. I took my feed to the loft from a hall way light below that was fed by only one wire (1.5mm T&E), there is a switch in the hallway circuit below prior to my added junction box followed by the hallway light. (Switch - added Junction box - Light (the theory being that if the lights in the loft are left on by mistake they will be switched off by the hallway switch below)) There are no further wires (ie: not connected using loop in method) to the hallway light or away from it.

Using 1.5mm T&E I've wired the circuit as follows: All 3 feeds into & out of junction box wired together; Lives, neutrals and CPC’s in separate terminals. Junction box to switch; Live into COM, neutral into chock block and cpc into cpc terminal in pattress. I've then wired up to the 1st baton lamp holder; Live to L1, neutral into neutral chock block and cpc to cpc terminal in pattress. At the 1st baton holder the Live goes to the Live (centre) terminal, Neutral to the Neutral terminal & cpc to cpc terminal.

I’ve then wired a connecting wire to a 2nd baton lamp holder at the other end of the loft as follows, 1st lamp holder: Live into the live terminal, Neutral (with brown sleeve) to the switched live terminal & cpc to cpc terminal on to the 2nd lamp holder where the Live goes into the switched live terminal and the Neutral (with brown sleeving) goes into the Neutral terminal & cpc into the cpc terminal.

Now when I turn on the newly installed light switch I can only get one light to stay on. The other light just flickers like it’s trying to start up but not quite managing it (I’m using energy saving bulbs). At first I thought there may be a loose connection so I switched the bulbs round but the light that flickered still flickered in the other holder, so then I swapped the flickering bulb for a different type of energy saving bulb. This one now stays on and the other bulb flickers! And if I swap the bulbs positions I get the same results, only one bulb will stay lit while the other flickers.

I’ve checked all the terminations and they are tight (but not too tight). Where have I gone wrong? If anyone needs more info please say.

Thanks in advance.

 

[riveralt]

Hi all,

Any help/advice/criticism that can be offered in relation to the below will be greatly received and taken on board...

I have recently attempted to install two baton lamp holders controlled by one switch in my loft. I took my feed to the loft from a hall way light below that was fed by only one wire (1.5mm T&E), there is a switch in the hallway circuit below prior to my added junction box followed by the hallway light. (Switch - added Junction box - Light (the theory being that if the lights in the loft are left on by mistake they will be switched off by the hallway switch below)) There are no further wires (ie: not connected using loop in method) to the hallway light or away from it..

A single wire suggests that the hallway light is either fed from another ceiling rose (a switch live) or there is no switch wire connected to it.

Using 1.5mm T&E I've wired the circuit as follows: All 3 feeds into & out of junction box wired together; Lives, neutrals and CPC’s in separate terminals. Junction box to switch; Live into COM, neutral into chock block and cpc into cpc terminal in pattress. I've then wired up to the 1st baton lamp holder; Live to L1, neutral into neutral chock block and cpc to cpc terminal in pattress. At the 1st baton holder the Live goes to the Live (centre) terminal, Neutral to the Neutral terminal & cpc to cpc terminal..

It is not clear what you have wired together here. Firstly, I don't think you have taken the power from the correct ceiling rose. The hallway appears to be a switch live. If I have read you description right, you have wired all the conductors to their respective colours and then...

I’ve then wired a connecting wire to a 2nd baton lamp holder at the other end of the loft as follows, 1st lamp holder: Live into the live terminal, Neutral (with brown sleeve) to the switched live terminal & cpc to cpc terminal on to the 2nd lamp holder where the Live goes into the switched live terminal and the Neutral (with brown sleeving) goes into the Neutral terminal & cpc into the cpc terminal..

wired the second baton from the first???

Now when I turn on the newly installed light switch I can only get one light to stay on. The other light just flickers like it’s trying to start up but not quite managing it (I’m using energy saving bulbs). At first I thought there may be a loose connection so I switched the bulbs round but the light that flickered still flickered in the other holder, so then I swapped the flickering bulb for a different type of energy saving bulb. This one now stays on and the other bulb flickers! And if I swap the bulbs positions I get the same results, only one bulb will stay lit while the other flickers..

Lighting circuits are generally wired in parallel - it sounds like you have wired this one in series - hence the reduced light on the last bulb.

Read the sticky at the top of the forum page to learn how to correctly wire a lighting circuit.

You need to draw your power from the lighting loop - this will give you return paths to the line, neutral and cpc.

I would wire this power to loft switch rather than a jb. with the brown in common the cpc to the back box and the blue to a neutral connector block.

Then take and additional cable, your switch wire and run it to the first baton. At the switch connect its brown to L1, its blue to the connector block and the cpc to the cpc.

The switch wire should go to the first baton with brown to brown and blue to blue then brown to brown and blue to blue in the second baton.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Your description makes no sense.

At the 1st baton holder the Live goes to the Live (centre) terminal, Neutral to the Neutral terminal & cpc to cpc terminal ....1st lamp holder: Live into the live terminal, Neutral (with brown sleeve) to the switched live terminal

You don't have a live, and a switched live there, only the latter.

And why do you think you should sleeve a neutral brown? That's the colour for live.

... on to the 2nd lamp holder where the Live goes into the switched live terminal and the Neutral (with brown sleeving) goes into the Neutral terminal

Again - why are you sleeving the neutral brown?

Where have I gone wrong?

I can't be bothered to try and wade through your somewhat rambling description to draw it out, but if you draw it I'm pretty sure you'll find you've wired the 2 lights in the loft in series.

 

[Chri5]

OP read the on site wiki, UK- Electrics - wiring, once you have done so all should become clear.

A switch with a secondary switch isn't the best idea.

Why not runa new switch wire down and convert the existing switch to a double, 1 for landing / upper hall the other for the loft.

If you hate the idea of the loft light being left on you could have a switch on the loft hatch

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/FM142.html

(door switch- push to break)

or buy MK grid double plate (for 2 switches), one side the standard job and the other a switch with a neon indicator that will give visual indication that the loft lights are on

 

[Swanster]

Thanks all for the responses & apologies for the rambling post.

It's clear I have not understood how to do this at all!

Thanks for the advice Riveralt, I understand where i've gone wrong now, I have wired the lights in series and wired the 2nd baton to the 1st incorrectly & also used the wrong feed for power! (complete disaster really!)

Im going to strip it out and start again, will read the sticky prior to doing this though!

One final question: Can I leave the feed to the hallway light running through the junction box or should I replace the cable fully?

Thanks again.

S

 

[riveralt]

Thanks all for the responses & apologies for the rambling post.

It's clear I have not understood how to do this at all!

Thanks for the advice Riveralt, I understand where i've gone wrong now, I have wired the lights in series and wired the 2nd baton to the 1st incorrectly & also used the wrong feed for power! (complete disaster really!)

Im going to strip it out and start again, will read the sticky prior to doing this though!

Sounds like a good idea.

One final question: Can I leave the feed to the hallway light running through the junction box or should I replace the cable fully?

Thanks again.

S

I cannot advise you on that because it is not clear how your lighting circuit is wired. You will need to draw your existing lighting circuit and the one you have now installed and put here on the forum.

You say that the hallway light ceiling rose has only one cable coming into it and this light is operated by a hallway switch. Does the hallway switch turn any other light on?
As a minimum, the number of cables I would expect at a ceiling rose is two; one for the loop in (assuming end of circuit) and one for the switch wire.
If there is only one cable and the hallway light works then it derives its power from another ceiling rose and switch.
If you still want the hallway switch to operate the hallway light and loft light together then you will need to rewire the circuit to accomodate this.

Your best bet is to take the line, neutral and cpc from the loop/netural and cpc on an existing ceiling rose that you can access from the loft.
As suggested by Chri5 replace the hallway light switch with a MK double gang plate switch - the loft switch having a neon.

You would then run the cable from the existing ceiling rose accessed from the loft down to the new switch and connect as follows:

Line (brown) to common and neutral (blue) to a terminal block - cpc to the back plate.

Then take another cable at the switch and run it back into the loft to the meet the first baton. This cable should be connected at the switch as follows:
Line (brown) to L1 and neutral (blue) to a terminal block - cpc to the back plate.

Then at the baton brown to brown blue to blue and similarly with the next baton.

There is another way of utilising your current switch wire but that would only complicate it further.

 

[Swanster]

Riveralt,

"You say that the hallway light ceiling rose has only one cable coming into it and this light is operated by a hallway switch. Does the hallway switch turn any other light on?"

The hallway switch doesn't turn on any other lights but I have found out that it is on the downstairs circuit rather than the upstairs. I used the main switch to isolate previously but last night I isolated with the trip switch instead and the hallway light still worked when the rest of the upstairs was off and vice versa.

Im going to re-wire the shambles in the loft at the weekend and will post and update on my success/failure if your interested.

Thanks again for your advice & everyone else, it's been much appreciated!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have found out that it is on the downstairs circuit rather than the upstairs.

Where does it get its neutral?

Downstairs as well, or, oh dear upstairs?

//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:sneutral

 

[riveralt]

Riveralt,

"You say that the hallway light ceiling rose has only one cable coming into it and this light is operated by a hallway switch. Does the hallway switch turn any other light on?"

The hallway switch doesn't turn on any other lights but I have found out that it is on the downstairs circuit rather than the upstairs. I used the main switch to isolate previously but last night I isolated with the trip switch instead and the hallway light still worked when the rest of the upstairs was off and vice versa.

If I understand what you say correctly then it is possible that the hallway switch is drawing power from the ceiling rose loop downstairs and then feeding this power to the hallway light.....

This is fine unless as BAS implies a borrowed neutral is involved.

The hallway switch would be correctly wired if the cable from the downstairs ceiling rose includes a line(brown/red) from the loop, a neutral(blue/black) from the neutral bar and cpc(green/yellow) link to the switch.

Inside the hallway switch I would expect to find the incoming T&E from the downstairs ceiling rose and an outgoing T&E to the hallway lamp ceiling rose. I would expect the neutrals of these two cables to be connected together in a terminal block, the incoming line to be placed in the common terminal and the outgoing line(switch line) to be placed in the L1 terminal - cpc to linked as well.

At the hallway lamp connect the switch line to the line and netural to neutral and cpc to cpc. This would ensure that you have a complete circuit from line to neutral.

If you then wished to link the hallway light switch to the lamps in the loft, then you would connect a cable from the hallway lamp line to the loft light line to line - same for neutral and same for cpc etc.

Unfortunately, I don't think that power through the switch method is explained in Wiki.

Good Luck