Mains bell/sounder in conjunction with PIR floodlight

The police obviously do a great job, but the advice they have given some of my people is sometimes bordering on the ridiculous. As with everyone else concerned with this post (I'm sure they would agree) it's difficult to gauge a total solution without actually seeing the property. Although cameras may not actually prevent a crime in many cases, one would imagine that their presence may go some way toward a deterrent. The only boundary in security is cost, otherwise everything is possible. External active infra red beams detecting the target before he is within the immediate vicinity of the property may possibly be one way to go, but there are several other possibilities. And it depends again on the frequency of attempted intrusions, if they are a regular occurence then more drastic measures need to be taken. I agree that light in a remote location only helps the intruder, nevertheless perhaps more light, the sort that lights the entire area up like a spaceship may be considered, but light on it's own would not solve the problem. And again there is the argument that a total blackout with a lot of noise would not help the intruder either. It's a bit of hit and miss without seeing the property and surrounding district.
 
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A sound bomb ( 120 db or more ) can drive the intruders out of the building due to the pain it can cause in the ears. ( it will also alert neighbours ). Black out any lights when the bomb is set off and the dis-orientation to the intruders is increased.
 
Thanks but not sure about the logic being the wrong way around<G> I was planning on using the PIR in the light unit to activate the noise element so in effect both are activated at the same time.

I wonder if anyone can point me to a cheapish message/loudspeaker item that can also be activated by a PIR.

Cheers

Richard
 
You can activate the bells and lights simultaneously using a mains ten amp relay (Double Pole Double throw) linked into the switching part of your external floodlights. You can also purchase long range external passive infra red detectors (about thirty metres) which activate a 500W floodlight. The relay I use on a regular basis is available from Maplin electronics at about a tenner although they may be cheaper elsewhere. If your existing master blaster is connected via it's own relay to a intruder alarm control panel, you can use a similar relay rated at 12Volts DC which can switch other devices via the bell output of the panel.
 
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[quote="chaindaisy";p="2530825" As with everyone else concerned with this post (I'm sure they would agree) it's difficult to gauge a total solution without actually seeing the property. Although cameras may not actually prevent a crime in many cases, one would imagine that their presence may go some way toward a deterrent. The only boundary in security is cost, otherwise everything is possible. External active infra red beams detecting the target before he is within the immediate vicinity of the property may possibly be one way to go, but there are several other possibilities. And it depends again on the frequency of attempted intrusions, if they are a regular occurence then more drastic measures need to be taken. I agree that light in a remote location only helps the intruder, nevertheless perhaps more light, the sort that lights the entire area up like a spaceship may be considered, but light on it's own would not solve the problem. And again there is the argument that a total blackout with a lot of noise would not help the intruder either. It's a bit of hit and miss without seeing the property and surrounding district.[/quote]

Many thanks for this good advise, much appreciated. I agree that without sight of the actual location of this buiding it is difficult to do much more than an educated guess.

I will try to provide a better picture. This building is up a narrow 1/3rd of a mile long council road gated at the start and gated at the top where I live in a house and the road goes on past as a track/footpath. The building that is my concern is a restored barn which is soon to be my office work space space and is 100 yds off to one side of the house and not on the council road. However it does have a footpath running about 50yds from the east end of it and this is considered to be the vulnerable point. At the north side (the rear) there are a pair of large patio style aluminium doors protected by a vibration alarm. The doors are not able to be lifted off their mountings I've been assurred by the company who installed them.

Both the house and the barn are in a very rural location but about a 1/4 of a mile from a B road that runs up the dead end valley that serves the local community. I've had a break-in at the workshop building that is adjacent to the barn a couple of years ago and the theives approached across the fields (hillside) from our entrance gate. The workshop is incorporated in the new security arrangements.

The house can be seen from the road but the barn is only visible in the winter months and then it is not that obvious.

Hope this is useful information.

Cheers

Richard
 
Thanks but not sure about the logic being the wrong way around<G> I was planning on using the PIR in the light unit to activate the noise element so in effect both are activated at the same time.
What would we know. We only do it for a living.
 
Thanks but not sure about the logic being the wrong way around<G> I was planning on using the PIR in the light unit to activate the noise element so in effect both are activated at the same time.
What would we know. We only do it for a living.
QFA

Sound first, intruder not too bothered, no near neighbours.

Lights second, 10/20 secs later, someone must be in, bye.
(Include an internal light first, then the outside, get the idea?
 
I don't think the comment "... what would we know, we only do it every day.." or words to that effect are meant as sarcastic. In fact the man is stating a very obvious point. Although three or four installers might have different approaches, they are professionals who are providing an insight into the problem going on very little detail. If these guys were on site they would resolve the issue in next to no time. Unfortunately, as installers we are always governed by what the customer can afford or wants to spend.

I pass through Monmouth quite frequently on my way to Hartpury in Gloucester, and during my first few trips often got lost on the many winding country lanes when I thought I was taking a shortcut. So I have a slightly brief idea of what your location might look like.

You have a converted barn, which is indicitive of the probability that this was once a farm, and may well still be so on a smaller scale. The comments on whether bells should be first or last are not without merit and deserve some thought, together with the voice 'annunciation' possibility. I also endorse the 'sound bomb' comment (don't concern yourself with what that is for the moment) but the four piezzo has a current drain of about 400 milliamps and there is only so much that a control panel can 'dish out'. So there may be a requirement for extra PSU's ( power supply units) and relays. The cost is minimal. I also go along with the comment that these 'numpties' are not the most sophisticated and will 'fall for the simplest deterrent'.

When installers mention these things, they are doing so in good faith and with your best interests at heart. Looking again at the concept of 'voice annunciation' and 'bells' and 'lights', we must consider whether or not these options are positioned to gain the overall effect of deterring the potential intruder. For example, bells positioned at one point on the property may well be effective if the intruder approaches from that direction. An intruder approaching from an entirely different direction may be totally unperterbed by the sound, particularly in high winds or adverse weather condition. All the security engineers involved with this post know of the EDL phenomena.

Since the barn is 100 yards from the main building, and there is also a workshop, the property in total is fairly spread out. You do not state how many people occupy your premises, their ages nor their physical capacity. I wouldn't expect you to do so, since your initial query relates strictly to 'security devices'. However, this is a factor, together with the proprietary question of 'Is the property ever left empty for long periods ?'.

From your description of the location and access, it is possible to gain entry on to your land from all compass points, you have already stated that an intrusion initially commenced from, shall we say 'across the fields'. There is also the distraction element to be considered, where you are led to believe that intruders are encroaching in one area, when the main thrust, as it were, is continuing from another.

They may have the best of intentions, but it might be better if you were to take the comments regarding the invincibility of the patio doors with a pinch of salt.

In a nutshell, before you make a final decision, arm yourself with a pair of binoculars and look at the surrounding area from first floor windows. What can you see ? where are the blind spots ? Wherever you can see, they also can see your property from that vantage point.

It is pointless securing a building which is 100 yards from the main premises if it is prone to attack in what our friend earlier called 'the silly hours'. The chance of you being alerted are slim. You therefore need to connect both properties to each other by way of cable or wireless signal. There is a possibility that at 100 yards, the interconnecting cable shall be subject to voltage loss (don't worry about this for the moment) but this can be overcome. Likewise, the workshop should also have a permanent interconnection with the main premises. In heavy winds, the sound from the bells or sirens, or whatever you use, can simply float in the opposite direction to you.

1) Interconnection of all buildings.

This is cheaper and simpler than people think. It can be achieved in just a few hours and provided you are in good health there is no need to bring in a contractor to do the job for you.
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It is a fair assumption that you do not know the total number of people using the tracks and surrounding areas. You should, since some individuals who rarely use these routes may well crop up for a week or so innocently walking their dogs (these are the characters who do not do anything innocently), they should be monitored, and since we do not have eyes in the backs of our heads we need something that does. The cheapest answer is in 24 hour DVR recording with CCTV cameras.

2) 24 hour cctv coverage.

Again, interconnecting as in 1 above. Are you acting illegaly using this method ? Well, not according to a friend of mine in the police force. You may video or photograph in any public place, currently there is no law preventing you from doing so. Were you to progress this route, you do not have to confine the cameras to the walls of your buildings, we have placed them in some ridiculous positions before now. It is worth mentioning, although it doesn't apply in your case, that you are not allowed to place a security camera where it is overlooking a neighbour's property and also that it is in your interests to mount most of the cameras in a highly visible position. If you have looked from your property with binoculars, there is no reason why others can not 'case' you using the same method, thus seeing the cameras. Careful positioning and overlap of cameras is vital to cover 'black spots'.

There are drawbacks in CCTV .... fog is a major culprit but this is not prevalent every day or night of the year. River fog, a phenomena which occurs at night and in certain weather conditions is usually confined to the immediate area, i.e. the banks and possibly a few metres from the banks of the river, but it should nevertheless be taken into consideration.
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Probably your biggest outlay, and one I would consider essential (others may disagree but their viewpoints are always valid) is a 'Dialler' which is capable of sending a message to say four or five numbers, this is normal for modern units anyway. A good one should be less than £100 but don't buy a 'cheapy'. If you could afford two, one using landline and another dedicated solely to 'wire free' transmission (think of a mobile phone) then so much the better. The reason for two is simply to ensure that there is a back up.

3) Remote signalling... Dialler.
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Lighting the grounds of the property has so far been a contentious issue in this series of posts, and with good reasons put forward. However, I am persuaded that a full 'flood' of the entire grounds is not without merit. Personally, I am not a fan of the 'bog standard' off the shelf units which incorporate a floodlight and detector. It is preferable to use seperate lights and detectors, with the capacity to turn on all or each of the lights from the main premises if necessary. It would be in your favour if the flood lighting was linked to the CCTV system via a switch which could turn the lights off during the day, a relay (don't concern yourself with 'relay' for the time being, it is a very simple procedure) would be required in this case.

4) Complete lighting coverage of all areas.
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I have a tendency to agree with the engineer who stated that sound should be introduced a few seconds before lighting. He states good grounds for this. Put in it's simplest form, if a relative came into your bedroom to wake you, then he or she would turn the light on and virtually at the same time 'call your name'. If that same relative did not turn the light on in your bedroom and call your name, you would be disorientated for a few seconds. That is the principle behind his statement, 'initial noise in the dark' always disorientates the best of us.

But these sounders, bells or sirens, call them what you will, should be positioned at every vantage point. A warning device is useless unless it is virtually 'on top' of the intruder. Here again, we are looking at the use of 'power supply units' and 'relays' which is not a costly job, nor technical, to achieve yourself.

5) External Warning at every location.
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There is no number six at the moment since it involves external dual infra red barriers and can be quite costly, but it is worth mentioning your fences. I don't know how long you've lived in the country, but a fence is no barrier to a fox, he'll find a way around, under, over or through it. This applies equally to the intruder. If he is intent on gaining access, no fence is going to stop him.

These are my own views based on my experiences protecting second homes in Mid Wales. At that time, some sort of Welsh nationalists were intent on burning down properties .... most of which were not second homes. Therefore, I would appreciate the input of younger engineers who have different and often better advice.
 
Crikey, can't fault that lot. Cheers by the way, only been at this job for about 40yrs, so I do have an idea or two.

Active beams around the property are a very good idea in this situation, can be used in so many ways with a bit of imagination, use them myself.
 
Active beams around the property are a very good idea in this situation, can be used in so many ways with a bit of imagination, use them myself.
I set up a few beams criss crossing an area and some spotlights so that when any two beams were broken the intersection was lit. It was a gimmick for a techno exhibition. It was very un-nerving to have a spot light "follow" you as you moved around the area.

No use for the OP's application as two beams had to be broken before a light lit. But if each beam had a controlled spotlight shining along the beam when it was broken then the effect could be as un-nerving to the intruder as being "followed" by spotlights.

( follow as in one light going off and another coming on when the person moved from one intersection to another )

I have heard of software that takes a CCTV feed of an area and controls a steerable spotlight to follow intruders, probably very expensive.
 
Hi Europlex, I had an idea you were no newcomer, your advice is too mature for that ballpark. Forty years, that's around the 70's mark, I started in 1978, so we're not far off each other. Can't fault you.

Bernard, the follow system you mentioned is very expensive, well it was a few years ago when I priced one, the problem I had at that time was that the area of coverage was two seperate private roads on what seemed like a country estate, and he wanted the 'follows' at less than a hundred yards from each other all the way up both drives. Pretty insistent, he had the cash and was not prepared to settle for anything less. I couldn't afford to do the job and had to pass it on. I like your exhibition piece, it would be a brave soul who would continue after that episode.

If our friend in Monmouth wants me to take a look around when I am next on my jaunts to Gloucester, I'm sure something can be arranged. And as usual, it's all free of charge (we're suckers for a problem site ) and we've all done it.

I was looking at some active IR's this afternoon and provided the layout of the buildings is suitable it's worth a go. But I don't want him to start laying concrete posts (which I insist on for active), so a 150 metre with say 30% attenuation could just do the job from building corner to building corner, again dependant on layout. We'll see how things develop.
 
Thanks for that, I just don't write long essays

Can't keep awake long enough

Have trouble reading them as well :LOL:
 
Nice one Europlex, I like it.

Wouldn't mind having a walk along the sheeptracks in Monmouth, just to establish what the local 'numpties' are likely to get up to. Having said that though, they would probably do the opposite. This is getting like the Hound of the Baskervilles.

Take Care, and Thanks.
 
If our friend in Monmouth wants me to take a look around when I am next on my jaunts to Gloucester, I'm sure something can be arranged. And as usual, it's all free of charge (we're suckers for a problem site ) and we've all done it.

Thank you so much for providing such a lot of good information which I'm sure many members will find of great help. Thanks of course to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

I would be delighted to welcome you here for a look around but I'm not in Monmouth. I'm on the Welsh/England border quite close to the A40. What is the best way to make contact with your off list?

Cheers

Richard
 
You have a converted barn, which is indicitive of the probability that this was once a farm, and may well still be so on a smaller scale.

Thank you very much for a most informative post . I will only include the parts of your post that require additional information.

You are correct this is a small hill farm.

Since the barn is 100 yards from the main building, and there is also a workshop, the property in total is fairly spread out. You do not state how many people occupy your premises, their ages nor their physical capacity. I wouldn't expect you to do so, since your initial query relates strictly to 'security devices'. However, this is a factor, together with the proprietary question of 'Is the property ever left empty for long periods ?'.

I'm here most of the time. I'm fit but should really be retired but enjoy working too much!

From your description of the location and access, it is possible to gain entry on to your land from all compass points, you have already stated that an intrusion initially commenced from, shall we say 'across the fields'.

Unfortunatly it can be approached from several directions though vehical access is very limited.

They may have the best of intentions, but it might be better if you were to take the comments regarding the invincibility of the patio doors with a pinch of salt.

Point taken. I've installed a camera position inside that looks directly at these doors and could be triggered by a PIR position outside the doors.

In a nutshell, before you make a final decision, arm yourself with a pair of binoculars and look at the surrounding area from first floor windows. What can you see ? where are the blind spots ? Wherever you can see, they also can see your property from that vantage point.

Good point.

It is pointless securing a building which is 100 yards from the main premises if it is prone to attack in what our friend earlier called 'the silly hours'. The chance of you being alerted are slim. You therefore need to connect both properties to each other by way of cable or wireless signal. There is a possibility that at 100 yards, the interconnecting cable shall be subject to voltage loss (don't worry about this for the moment) but this can be overcome. Likewise, the workshop should also have a permanent interconnection with the main premises.

The workshop is linked into the barn alarm system.

In heavy winds, the sound from the bells or sirens, or whatever you use, can simply float in the opposite direction to you.

I have an intercom on between the barn and the house so I hope the alarm going off would wake me from my slumbers. There is a 20 pair BT underground cable linking the house to the barn with most pairs available for some sort of additional communication and a pair of CAT5e underground cables.

This is cheaper and simpler than people think. It can be achieved in just a few hours and provided you are in good health there is no need to bring in a contractor to do the job for you.

I've carried out the entire restoration/rebuild and all installation works on the barn so would want to continue the DIY work where possible.

It is a fair assumption that you do not know the total number of people using the tracks and surrounding areas. You should, since some individuals who rarely use these routes may well crop up for a week or so innocently walking their dogs (these are the characters who do not do anything innocently), they should be monitored, and since we do not have eyes in the backs of our heads we need something that does. The cheapest answer is in 24 hour DVR recording with CCTV cameras.

I'm very observant as regards to passers by especially as I have three dogs who let me know when we have walkers going past!

Probably your biggest outlay, and one I would consider essential (others may disagree but their viewpoints are always valid) is a 'Dialler' which is capable of sending a message to say four or five numbers, this is normal for modern units anyway. A good one should be less than £100 but don't buy a 'cheapy'. If you could afford two, one using landline and another dedicated solely to 'wire free' transmission (think of a mobile phone) then so much the better. The reason for two is simply to ensure that there is a back up.

No mobile signal around here but underground phone line.

There is no number six at the moment since it involves external dual infra red barriers and can be quite costly, but it is worth mentioning your fences. I don't know how long you've lived in the country, but a fence is no barrier to a fox, he'll find a way around, under, over or through it. This applies equally to the intruder. If he is intent on gaining access, no fence is going to stop him.

I've lived in the country for most of my life and at this location for 30 years and am well used to foxes etc. I can make the area around the barn fox and rabitt proof without too much difficulty.
 

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