Mandatory Electrical checks - Private rentals in Scotland

[baldelectrician]

So, the news isn't hitting the streets everywhere but landlords are getting to know about it.

The Scottish Government have announced new MANDATORY guidance from 1st December 2015

Currently there was a grey area, but now this is clarified

Any tenancy agreement (renewed or new) from 1st December 2015 will be required to have all the requirements in place, landlords have until 1st December 2016 to bring their existing properties up to standard.

The guidance is at the Scottish Government PRHP website

A download can be found HERE (doc)

If a landlord does not use a registered (SELECT or NICIEC) electrician the landlord has to obtain information on a checklist from the electrician

The check list is below

Discuss...

 

[ericmark]

Annex A is interesting.

I am a member of a professional body. Well yes I am, I am a member of the IET, but how does that help? There are many stages of membership with professional bodies one can be registered as an electricians mate so that requirement is daft.

Having to retrain every 5 years and with every new version of the BS7671 will knock many electricians off the list. I took my C&G2382 when the 17th came out in 2008 so although I have current qualifications I would need to go back to college even though I would not need to sit the exam.

Oddly since I use Electrofix not Screwfix I could provide bills.

Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) Health & Safety Assessment would knock me off the list.

As to Approved Electrician grade since I was industrial I was an Advanced Electrician and was not using the JIB system. I am told even with my C&G2391, and 2382 plus what ever the number is of PAT testing plus a degree in electrical and electronic engineering I would not get Approved Electricians status under the JIB scheme. My 45 years in the trade it seems does not count, because it seems I was industrial.

So I could not do the inspection and testing in Scotland since I live in Wales not really worried, however it states "but a landlord can carry out appliance testing if they have undertaken appropriate training." really if I can't satisfy the criteria how would a landlord?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Can you have mandatory guidance, as in the OP, or statutory guidance, as in the link?

 

[JohnW2]

Can you have mandatory guidance, as in the OP, or statutory guidance, as in the link?

It seems to be very confusing. Anything Statutory is obviously 'mandatory', but I agree that I don't really see that either can be 'guidance'. Furthermore, although the new document relating to CO detectors is called "Scottish Statutory Guidance", the new document in relation to electrical installations is called "Scottish Government Guidance".

It seems that England is not the only place where such things can be unclear!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A download can be found HERE (pdf)

No, that's a .docx file, not a PDF.

If a landlord does not use a registered (SELECT or NICIEC) electrician

No:

In Scotland, this will usually mean that they are a registered with NICEIC, a member firm of the Electrical Contractors' Association of Scotland (SELECT), or a member of the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers (NAPIT). ​

The check list is below

No it isn't.

This is what I see in your post,

and if I try right-click view image I get this:

But in any event, I cannot see anything remotely contentious in Annex A, nor do I have a problem with a statutory requirement for a schedule for EICRs.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Having to retrain every 5 years and with every new version of the BS7671 will knock many electricians off the list.

One has to ask if they should be on the list if they cavil at far-from-onerous CPD.

Oddly since I use Electrofix not Screwfix I could provide bills.

Not mandatory - a UTR is another option, and anybody who pays tax will have one of those.

Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) Health & Safety Assessment would knock me off the list.

It costs £40, takes 30 minutes (so probably ½ day including travel), and a revision guide with all the Q&A in is free. See above about attitude to CPD.

As to Approved Electrician grade since I was industrial I was an Advanced Electrician and was not using the JIB system. I am told even with my C&G2391, and 2382 plus what ever the number is of PAT testing plus a degree in electrical and electronic engineering I would not get Approved Electricians status under the JIB scheme. My 45 years in the trade it seems does not count, because it seems I was industrial.

That's not at all obvious from the JIB list of conditions, nor is there anything obvious about there being 2 different grades for domestic and industrial.

But given how useless the Competent Person schemes have made themselves wrt their members being genuinely competent I'd like to see that JIB grade more widely mandated.

 

[ericmark]

I think the general idea is good. However Scotland I thought was a member of the EU and as such there has to be a free movement of labour between member states. So a Welsh, Irish, or even English electrician should be able to work in Scotland without taking extra exams or courses.

We already have problems between England and Wales. A friend of mine did a job in Lower Kinnerton and then got the same work in Higher Kinnerton in another house. He actually asked the owner are you in Wales or England, and she said England. However it transpired Higher Kinnerton was in Wales so it required a compliance or completion certificate. In his case that would have added £150 to the job.

There is also a fuss about sprinkler systems with new houses. But although costs may change at least Electricians can still cross the boarder. To say Joe Blogs can do an EICR one side of boarder and not the other is fundamentally wrong. Specially when one looks at testing and inspecting of in service electrical equipment it could be tested one side of boarder and used other side of boarder are we going to have boarder controls checking if equipment has a test done by a Scottish qualified electrician?

Also what about new equipment. Do you need a certificate of newness? Or does even new equipment need testing? To my mind Scotland has jumped the gun. Until we leave the EU this would be against EU law.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There are many jobs and professions where you have to take "local" tests, prove competence etc. If Joe Bloggs can't do an EICR in Scotland because of their requirements then it is the English system which is at fault and needs mending.

Until we leave the EU this would be against EU law.

If you mean "until" rather than "unless" then I wish with every fibre of my being that you become bitterly disappointed.

 

[stillp]

However Scotland I thought was a member of the EU and as such there has to be a free movement of labour between member states. So a Welsh, Irish, or even English electrician should be able to work in Scotland without taking extra exams or courses.

Scotland isn't a member of the EU, and neither are England, Wales, or Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is a member.

 

[JohnW2]

Scotland isn't a member of the EU, and neither are England, Wales, or Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is a member.

Indeed - but does not the EU Directive call (at least implicitly) for 'free movement of labour' within, as well as between, member states?

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Good question. Which EU Directive? The Treaty of Rome doesn't.

 

[stillp]

OK, it is in the current Treaty for the Functioning of the European Union, which is based on the Treaty of Rome.

Article 45

1.Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Union.

2.Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment.

3.It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:

(a)to accept offers of employment actually made;

(b)to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;

(c)to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action;

(d)to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.


4.The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

Item 3 (b) seems to cover it.

 

[JohnW2]

Good question. Which EU Directive? The Treaty of Rome doesn't.

Maybe not a Directive, but Article 48 of the Treaty of Rome says ...

ARTICLE 48 1. Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Community by the end of the transitional period at the latest. 2. Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment. 3. It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health: (a) to accept offers of employment actually made; (b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose; (c) to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action; (d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in implementing regulations to be drawn up by the Commission. 4. The provisions of this Article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

... and I would have thought that the wording applies to 'freedom of movement' anywhere within the EU, both within and between Member States, doesn't it?

Kind Regards, John
Edit: typed slightly too slowly - but 'your' treaty seems to be a direct crib from (not merely 'based upon') the Treaty of Rome!

 

[stillp]

Yes, the TFEU is the ToR incorporating some amendments.

 

[PBC_1966]

Item 3 (b) seems to cover it.

Except that like most of the EU's musings about rights, it contains get-out clauses, so that it's not really recognizing them as rights at all.

In this case, wouldn't "subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health" pretty much allow the Scottish government to claim it doesn't apply because it's their public policy, or justified on the grounds of public health?