Maths question

Well, if that publication happened to get the values right, you might very well think that.

Surely the values are not up for discussion.

The TLC tables have 10mm² at 1.83mΩ/m and 1mm² at 18.1mΩ/m (all but 10 times) so I think it fair to say that is probably (near enough) correct even though the 2.5, 4 & 6 are not proportionate.
 
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Arrrggghhh ...

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Well, if that publication happened to get the values right, you might very well think that.
I rarely use the OSG (or TLC) as a reference source, so I don't know who have got the figures right, and who have not.
Surely the values are not up for discussion.
Sure, there obviously must be correct actual figures.

In any event, as I've just written the need for 'accurate' figures really doesn't exist, given the virtually inevitable (and quite possibly very appreciable) uncertainties about conductor temperatures in any particular situation.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Not to mention that the MCB might trip at 4In but we can't assume that.
Indeed and maybe even at 3In. However, all we can really do is consider 'worst possible' scenarios - and I suppose that applies to conductor temp as well as everything else.

However, in the case of a cable used in a circuit whose design current is less than the CCC of the cable at 70°, I think it's reasonable to 'estimate' what its resistance is actually likely to be at the circuit's design current, rather than to work with the tabulated figure for 70°.

Where this all becomes rather silly is that when we come to determine whether Zs is low enough for ADS, I would imagine that the measurements [whether a direct Zs measurement or (R1+R2)] are very commonly undertaken on relatively 'cold' conductors - so I have to wonder how many circuits which have Zs which is 'just low enough' when measured will actually have 'too high' a Zs when in normal (or, at least, ocacsional) operation!

Kind Regards, John
 
Where this all becomes rather silly is that when we come to determine whether Zs is low enough for ADS, I would imagine that the measurements [whether a direct Zs measurement or (R1+R2)] are very commonly undertaken on relatively 'cold' conductors - so I have to wonder how many circuits which have Zs which is 'just low enough' when measured will actually have 'too high' a Zs when in normal (or, at least, ocacsional) operation!
Yes, of course, that is why the direct measurement should be adjusted for a higher temperature to determine compliance - or is it conformity?

That is why 'that publication' (and possibly others), in my opinion wrongly, adjusts the maximum Zs value - (again wrongly multiplying by 0.8 instead of dividing by 1.2) - which as I said to Studentspark does not actually alter.
 
Yes, of course, that is why the direct measurement should be adjusted for a higher temperature to determine compliance - or is it conformity?
Indeed, but I have to wonder whether (m)any electricians actually do that?

In fact (and here I confess that, for once, I am probably closer to the OSG than to BS7671!), given that I imagine that these measurements are very commonly undertaken with conductors at/near to 'ambient' temp, I have to wonder why on earth BS7671 tabulates 'maximum Zs' figures for conductors at their maximum permitted operating temp - since that is 'asking for' people who don't think enough to think that a circuit is compliant/conformant when it isn't.
That is why 'that publication' (and possibly others), in my opinion wrongly, adjusts the maximum Zs value - (again wrongly multiplying by 0.8 instead of dividing by 1.2) - which as I said to Studentspark does not actually alter.
Do you have the current version of the OSG? I ask because it appears to divide the BS7671 figures by 1.25, and that because, for some reason, it has decided to quote figures for 10°C - which is probably an ambient temp in which many electricians would refuse to work :) However, as above, if they had presented figures for, say 20°C, then I think that I would probably regard that as more 'appropriate' ('idiot proof') than BS7671's 70°C figures.
... compliance - or is it conformity?
Given the seemingly weird definition that has crept into BS7671, in the general case one first has to determine whether there is a non-conformity and then, if and only if there is a non-conformity, decide whether or not it is also a non-compliance. However, in the specific case we are talking about I think one can probably say that any non-conformity as regards 'maximum Zs' "may give rise to danger", and hence is automatically also a non-compliance?

Kind Regards, John
 
Indeed, but I have to wonder whether (m)any electricians actually do that?
I have always thought they would, however, if the maximum Zs is wrongly adjusted so that they don't have to, then they don't have to - but this would not be using the correct values.

In fact (and here I confess that, for once, I am probably closer to the OSG than to BS7671!), given that I imagine that these measurements are very commonly undertaken with conductors at/near to 'ambient' temp, I have to wonder why on earth BS7671 tabulates 'maximum Zs' figures for conductors at their maximum permitted operating temp - since that is 'asking for' people who don't think enough to think that a circuit is compliant/conformant when it isn't.
Because that is the correct figure.

Do you have the current version of the OSG?
Yes, but I don't like looking at it.

I ask because it appears to divide the BS7671 figures by 1.25, and that because, for some reason, it has decided to quote figures for 10°C - which is probably an ambient temp in which many electricians would refuse to work :)
Ok, OSG - however:

However, as above, if they had presented figures for, say 20°C, then I think that I would probably regard that as more 'appropriate' ('idiot proof') than BS7671's 70°C figures.
I don't think BS7671 does quote figures for conductors at 70°.
For example B32 MCB is 1.37Ω; i.e. 230 / 160 x 0.95.

There is no temperature related to maximum Zs; it is the same at all temperatures.
It is the conductor resistance which alters and must be adjusted for the actual circumstances - as we have been explaining.


That some think it necessary for publications to adjust that which cannot be adjusted so that everything is at the worst case scenario for the ignorant (OSG) is not, in my view, the correct way to do things.
 
I have always thought they would, however, if the maximum Zs is wrongly adjusted so that they don't have to, then they don't have to - but this would not be using the correct values.
I suppose it depends 'which book' they use.

If, as you would presumably like, they used only BS7671, it presents them with a Table entitled "Maximum Zs values". Whilst I'm not saying that it excuses them, I can 'understand' that if they make a measurement (with conductors at roughly ambient temp) and get an answer less than the tabulated 'Maximum Zs' figure, then they could well assume that the circuit is therefore 'OK' ('compliant').

I might be wrong, but I strongly suspect that this is an issue which is not all that widely understood/realised (or thought about). There have been lots of discussions (here and elsewhere) about 'maximum Zs', particularly around the time that all the figures changed because of the introduction of Cmin. In those discussions, the (explicit or implicit) gist is commonly that if the measured Zs of a circuit (measured either 'directly' or as R1+R2+Ze) is less that the "Maximum Zs" figure tabulated in Table 41.3, then the circuit is 'OK'. However, in reality the measurement [either of Zs or (R1+R2)] will nearly always have been undertaken with a conductor temperature considerably less than 70°C - so a measurement which is only a little less than the tabulated 'Maximum Zs' may well relate to a circuit whose Zs will not be OK if (as one has to assume) the conductor temperature were 70°C.

As I've said, there is 'no excuse' for making this mistake, but the risk of that happening would probably be reduced if the title of Table 41.3 were made a little more clear - since it's quite easy (even if 'not excusable') to assume that "Maximum permissible Zs" means "Maximum permissible measured Zs". The alternative (which is what the OSG seems to be attempting to do) is to tabulate the "Maximum permissible Zs when measured with conductors at ambient temp".
I don't think BS7671 does quote figures for conductors at 70°. .... For example B32 MCB is 1.37Ω; i.e. 230 / 160 x 0.95.
OK, I didn't use clear enough language (although I assumed that you would understand my point). As you say, Max Zs figure does not depend on temperature, so that the tabulated 'Max Zs' figures do not relate to any particular temperature. Hence, as you go on to say ...
... It is the conductor resistance which alters and must be adjusted for the actual circumstances - as we have been explaining.
Obviously all true - but, as above, errors could be reduced by one of the approaches I mentioned. Although, yet again, it's not an excuse, if one "measures Zs" and then refers to a table entitled "Maximum Zs", it's not hard to see what can go wrong.
That some think it necessary for publications to adjust that which cannot be adjusted so that everything is at the worst case scenario for the ignorant (OSG) is not, in my view, the correct way to do things.
Yep, but you refer to an ideal world. In the real world, all human beings are fallible, and of varying degrees of intelligence, knowledge and reasoning ability, so it always make sense (in any field or walk of life) to anticipate what one can of 'predictable human errors' and do what one can to reduce/minimise the risk of them occurring.

Kind Regards, john
 
Thanks John, ELFI and Ericmark. Really appreciate your guidance, some good reading there. Yes I got the R1+R2 from the OSG.
 
Thanks John, ELFI and Ericmark. Really appreciate your guidance, some good reading there. Yes I got the R1+R2 from the OSG.
You're welcome.

I think your question was fairly easily (and, I hope, satisfactorily) answered. Give or take some details, your maths was conceptually correct, other than that you were implicitly assuming an appreciably higher conductor temperature than would usually be seen in a 20A/2.5mm² circuit (certainly if Method C) - with the main issue being that of interpretation (and the 'relative importance' of VD and Zs).

However, what has spun off from that is potentially a much bigger can of worms. I may be wrong, but I do have a feeling that many people may not be looking at this 'Maximum Zs' business correctly. If someone measures (or calculates) Zs, either 'directly' or as R1+R2+Ze, and then sees a table in BS7671 of 'Maximum Zs' figures, I can't help but think that a good few will simply compare their measured figure with the 'Maximum' figures in that tabulation to decide if the circuit is 'compliant'. I hope I am wrong, but am not confident that I am!

Kinds Regards, John
 

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