Miele W828

[HarryKiri]

The boards pictured on Ebay still show 2K1 soldered in place. That relay is removed and bridged on our EL200 D. I'm sure there is no fuse mounted anywhere on our board ... edit: wrong!!! ... Can't identify a couple of VOGT devices, (a German company) their catalog doesn't have anything similar to:

VOGT N5 503 20 010 10 - which looks like it could be a solid state relay doing the job of 2K1. This device is kind of SMD'd between the two SCR's (which are TN1215's, 12 Amp).

VOGT N8 570 28 008 00 - mains transformer of some type.

Our EL200 D has a Miele part number of 4816151. As I get time I'm labelling pics of the board with what the components are and anything else I think might be helpful, the circuit diagram can never be completed because so many of the tracks are obscured by the aluminium housing, I'll be happy just to get a couple of particularly relevant bits of the schematic sorted. Our mudmap (cant be called a schematic) found in the machine claims it is for "W800/W900 Novo 3-Midi/Basic" so I guess it's at least a bit generic across a few models

I'm positive our problem is on this board. In theory it should be simple, no output from the bridge rectifier ... but tracing it through from 240V I/P to whatever AC volts is finally applied to the bridge isn't easy. My kingdom for a full schematic. The EDPW Programmable Logic Controller ?? board does produce a change in DC volts which should drive 6K1 at the correct time. Presumably that should operate the VOGT N5 then the SCR's ... anyway, thats about it for the moment.

 

[incognito]

We also have the el 200 d board. If you look at the board and put it so that the side where the aluminium casing is along the bottom with the board longways, then above the top right hand corner of the casing there is an orange round shaped small component. My husband said this is a fuse. He removed this and soldered in another. On the right of this and going down vertically are three black components. Two of these are labelled ST MRC TN1215 800GM CO12. My partner says they regulate power to the engine and he thinks they have broken, so that when the engine is wired in they are not working and so blow the fuse. However, he cannot be sure and so we decided to get the board repaired by this German guy. This guy said in his email that the board often goes after washing something heavy, which actually we didn't, but I did do a very hot wash. The board is on the site we listed on this site, if you want to look at it. Hope this helps. I am relaying information without fully understanding yours, living with a technical guy but not being that up on it myself. But I do know that these are the components that he pinpointed.

 

[Flapjack]

Hi

incognito Thank you for the excellant reply.

I found the info and pics very useful, it brings me to the conclusion that I have a electronic issue & not a motor problem as I first thought, So now I have a spare working Meile motor in my cupboard.
Now to my next thought what is the problem with the EL200D board What part is at fault?

Now off to Google

Flapjack

 

[Flapjack]

Well it looks like there are no scemetics for the EL200d board on the web



Flapjack

 

[incognito]

Glad it was useful! Well if we get the board back and it turns out the motor is our problem, we may be in touch!

 

[HarryKiri]

Hi Incognito, no doubt about it, the component which I took for a capacitor was a fuse. I've never come across PC board fuses like that before, hope Farnell stocks 'em. Yes, it's blown. Thanks for drawing my attention to it!!!

I don't have any slo blo fuses of suitable value, will have to go buy some tomorrow. So far as removing connector 9, that also removes a normally closed overload?? sensor, which so far I've believed removes AC input volts to the bridge rectifier when a major overload condition occurs. That now needs revisiting in light of the 6.3 Amp fuse. I've continued to try to locate a circuit - without success. Your Ebay link showed a comment (in German) that with the EL200 D "rinse flashing" fault that only a new board would fix the problem. It also appeared to say that this problem will re-appear down the line, at exactly the same elapsed time!!!! That would suggest the board failure is associated with some kind of predictable motor wear ... only thing I can think of is the brushes. Not sure Babelfish interpreted this properly.

I've connected a digimeter to the DC motor and measured the resistance presented to the drive circuitry, as the drum (and hence motor) is slowly stepped around. Varies between about 3.2 - 6 ohms. Next step will be to replace fuse and see what happens.

Your references to the Ebay guys was extremely helpful as was your step by step analysis and photos. The price of a new board mentioned on Ebay (371 euros I think it was) exceeded even my most pessimistic expectations and is causing an abrupt re-evalution of whether we wish to continue with Miele machines. You can buy a brand new front loader here for less than the cost of this single circuit board (bottom end machine with all the potential problems that can generate). Will post again when (if??) we decide our Miele machine is worth the effort and resources

 

[Flapjack]

Hi HarryKiri , ingocnito,

As a house husband "shock Horror", I spoke with meile today as I could not wait for the board to be repaired as wife has just had OP & will be home for the next 6 weeks, She wears 3 changes of clothes a day...

I told customer service that my meile has a fast flashing rinse light etc...
& I wished to order a EL200D he advised that the EL200D PCB has been replaced by the EL200C price £128+ Vat if I return the defective part the price would be a total of £118 inc vat, I said I was concerned that if I purchased the pcb & the rinse light still flashed would I be able to return it.
answer NO!
He advised me that someone will be in on friday whom will be able to answer my question.....

Friday soon.... So not long to wait to hopefully an answer from a meile specialist.
I am on a low budget & the father-in-law has said it is new money for old rope & a new machine plus 2 year guarantee would be better?

Well I slept on my thought like we all do & I consider the expense far better than a basic washing machine, but he is lending me the monies for the PCB I hope

as soon as I have spoke to meile I will post their reply

Flapjack

 

[HarryKiri]

Hi all. Flapjack, I sympathise with your "no win" situation.

Update:

I'm suspicious on why they're replacing the "D" with a "C" board. Perhaps they've had a very high failure rate and/or a vital component can no longer be sourced by Miele. Hmm - perhaps the mod'd EL200 D is already causing collateral damage to Miele's reputation?

I'll shortly go out to a local electronics store to buy temporary test fuses for diagnostic fuse blowing sessions Before I do that, I looked up the closest fuse in the Oz Farnell catalogue - I'm not sure if it should be a delay or antisurge/instantaneous type, neither will protect the SCR's in the event of a substantial overload, so on balance it probably should be delay type. Here's the only available fuse from Farnell fitting the TR5 case/rated current & voltage/PCB mount criteria.

http://au.farnell.com/jsp/search/br...YCWNBBSLYFQ?N=1001444+107228&_requestid=15728

OMG! $131.00 (None available in Australia). What causes such a price? A very limited supply, I'd imagine. You can be sure Miele wouldn't have built the boards with *that* fuse if it had been priced like that when prototype testing was taking place!!!

Here's a PDF that shows another manufacturer making similar fuses (with a 6.3 Amp version in their range), at some time, probably vastly cheaper: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/96014.pdf

Will post when further info to hand ... or we decide to cut our losses and dump Miele permanently, due to the extraordinary cost of replacement parts Strangely, I don't recall the salesman discussing this issue in early 2003

 

[incognito]

HI there,

This is the fuse you need, its actually 3.61!
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1214705 but there are 131 left, so maybe you saw the wrong bit in a panic at the prices of these things. The German guy said that they blow after something heavy has been in the drum, so maybe not a fault so much as strain in many cases!

My partner created a temporary fuse with this

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=1&ModuleNo=12056&doy=20m6
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=GL98G&DOY=20m6

However, it immediately blew, making him think it was the SRC's that had blown.

I have to say that I would buy a Miele again despite all of this. It washed incredibly well and is simple yet I can vary everything. Our machine has had very heavy use for 8 years with only the element going in that time. The rest of the machine looks incredible still, if only we can fix this problem. I am sure a cheaper machine wouldn't last as long or wash as well, and the engineers to fix those machines cost nearly as much even though the parts are cheaper. I do think someone ought to start a campaign to get things fixed more easily though! However, maybe a Bosch...but I bet they are nearly as expensive to fix!

 

[HarryKiri]

Looks like the Oz Farnell operation needs a slightly?? higher markup

The UK price of 3 pounds 61 pence does an extraordinary transformation when it goes onto the Farnell's Oz website!

http://au.farnell.com/1214705/electrical-circuit-protection/product.us0?sku=schurter-0034-6623

These are one and the same fuse, same part number.

First I checked the two SCR's in situ for short circuit - cathode to anode - both measured open circuit so far so good. I ended up using some 3AG glass tubular instant 5 Amp fuses for testing, hanging in space via 2 wires soldered to the track pads normally occupied by the PCB fuse. I then cut the wiring loom, the cut wire being from pin 9/1 on the EL200 D to pin 3 on the M5 Motor terminals. Put in a temporary terminal block and a 1 ohm 6 Watt resistor in series with the cut wire (ie DC motor supply) - just to raise the resistance slightly and potentially reduce the motor current somewhat. Switched on.

Drum filled, then immediate very unusual sound emanating from somewhere inside machine for a couple of seconds, I saw the fuse wire start to sag ... knew the fuse was about to go so hit the off button. Not sure what just happened, but the drum didn't start to rotate. Logically the sound must be coming from the DC motor ... but what's *causing* it? 2nd test, this time leaving the cut wire open circuit, no resistor, (no DC supply to the motor). Again drum fill, same weird sound from the motor but this time the fuse went spectacularly before I could hit the off button. Need to positively identify sound source, don't understand why motor would make weird sound when DC supply is definitely not present due the O/C wire in the loom. Unless it is coming from the device (overload relay I assume) across terminals 8 and 9 on M5. Makes no sense at the moment and as it is now 2 am cannot continue without shut eye.

Edit: 21 June 7.30 pm. Resumed deriving bridge rectifier/SCRs/motor output partial cct to try to make sense of above.

 

[incognito]

That's some mark-up! Unfortunately our Sydney friend just went home or we could have sent him home with some!

The motor noise sounds weird.... Will consult with the maestro when he gets home. I hope we haven't got the same problem, we really could do with getting some washing done...

 

[HarryKiri]

The first partial schematic of the EL200D is now derived, limited to the switching and regulation of power to the DC Motor. It needs redrawing for a more readable layout I will do that when I get more time. I have no information on the overload device or the long solid black rectangular device (probably an unused - ie. superceded - speed control) on the M5 DC Motor sub unit).

The derived cct. may still contain an error, as the bridge configuration borders on inexplicable. If this derived cct. turns out to be correct, some of us might ponder on the reason for the EL200C replacing the EL200D - the EL200D being a modified version of the EL200C so far as I can see ....

The derived cct. suggests the overload unit (between pins 8 and 9 on M5) is the source of the unusual noise and the noise is just a symptom of overload current levels flowing. Still a way to go ... not anxious to return to those diagnostic fuse blowing sessions.

 

[HarryKiri]

The schematic is completed (Motor Control function only). Other functions are too obscured by components or the aluminium shield to draw properly.

Sorry in advance if there are any errors (please let me know about it and I'll correct them). As this was all done in 1 am to 4 am timeslots, I was a bit tired and error prone at times.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd257/harrykiri/EL200DCircuitDiagram.jpg

I can send the EL200D schematic data file (and a link to the free schematic creation application) if anyone wants it, provided you have a contact email address in your profile. Will recommence board diagnosis again now, hopefully this time without needing any further "diagnostic fuse blowing"

Warning: this is quite a dangerous PCB with 240V in many places, extreme caution is required if working on it whilst it is powered up.

Edit:
24 June 08 a.m. - error found in schematic, will update soon.
24 June 08 2324 - schematic redrawn.
25 June 08 2350 - recommenced fault. Very surprised, semiconductors OK.

 

[HarryKiri]

Up till now, I was imagining this fault had to be associated with us unthinkingly overloading the machine. Now, I doubt that was the case.

The problem was finally located in 6K1 a few minutes ago, pretty unsophisticated, just a simple welded contact. Too easy Part now ordered (coming from the UK).

Thank you everyone for all the little bits of info that contributed to a bit of a win here.

HarryK

 

[Sleepyhead]

This goes much further than repairers go. We couldn't justify the time taken to do this.
However, may I ask what 6K1 is?