New boiler needed: combi vs standard?

[BigBurner]

The Atmos may be the best boiler in the World. Frankly their installed base is far too low to make that claim.

What strange logic. Rolls Royces were not on every corner either.

The install base is quite high now for Atmos. They have enough dealers.

I don't see Atmos making any significant claims for reliability neither does their warranty.

They do. Install base in Holland is high and whole estates filled with them having few problems, if at all. The heat exchanger was an innovation when introduced. This is from their site:

"We expect these to last 20 years" - Chairman, Dawn Housing Association - Amsterdam, The Netherlands

"We have fitted 22,000 of these boilers in the last 10 years, and we have not had a single heat exchanger failure" - Bonarius (installation company, Amsterdam)

Look below, even the pressure vessel hinges out of the way. Everything is simple just before you. Brilliant design.

I think it is disingenious for a person known not to fit any boilers and who obtains recent product knowledge from scouring internet spec sheets to pontificate in this way.

I know this business, you need to learn more about it. At least know the products available and what they offer, as that is a good start.

 

[Agile]

I know this business, you need to learn more about it. At least know the products available, as that is a good start.

I remember that you once said that a Biasi boiler did not modulate!

You said that because the spec sheet did not specifically say it modulated!

Because you have never worked on a real boiler yourself all the "knowledge" you quote has to be based on the spec sheets.

Tony

 

[BigBurner]

Those who cry about combis fit garbage like baxi/pott. Biasi, Ravenheat and other assorted tin.

Look at an Atmos 32kW combi

There are plenty of complaints with all brands. Your favourite makes sell next to f/all by comparison so can't be properly assesed for failures.

Rolls Royces sold few as well.

Combi boilers were developed in the 60's and mass produced by the 80's.

The 1950s by Chaffateax in France. The 1970s in Europe. We are behind.

 

[BigBurner]

I know this business, you need to learn more about it. At least know the products available, as that is a good start.

I remember that you once said that a Biasi boiler did not modulate!

I never said at at all.

Because you have never worked on a real boiler yourself all the "knowledge" you quote has to be based on the spec sheets.

Tony

It appears I have hit a raw nerve with many!

 

[Registered Gas Man]

Mikrofill Ethos 54kW

Seen these advertised in the merchant, seen you giving them good press a few times now.

54kW with rising gas prices? This is not an attack its a genuine inquiry as to how good they really are.

 

[Nixt]

Rolls Royces sold few as well.

Pointless comparison, comparing the most expensive, exclusive brand of motoring with a brand of the cheapest form of central heating.




The 1950s by Chaffateax in France. The 1970s in Europe. We are behind.

Maybe, but not for those reasons, Britain is probably the biggest combi market because of price. France are 80% electric, Italy have recently changed back to district heating, Spain is using more solar and Northern Europe are moving ever more towards renewables. Meanwhile back in the UK, you think you're the first to discover combi's... Could be you who's behind.

 

[diverdee]

you can do both fit a good combi and still have tanks just plumbed as a s plan .then you can have good pressure on your shower n leave the kids on the tanks lol

 

[BigBurner]

Maybe, but not for those reasons, Britain is probably the biggest combi market because of price.

And compactness and economy of running and they deliver the goods.

France are 80% electric,

New n me. I see combis everywhere in urban areas.

Italy have recently changed back to district heating,

All of it?

Spain is using more solar

and lots of combis too.

and Northern Europe are moving ever more towards renewables.

And Germany and Holland are inundated with combis.

Meanwhile back in the UK, you think you're the first to discover combi's...

I do? New on me.

 

[BigBurner]

you can do both fit a good combi and still have tanks just plumbed as a s plan .then you can have good pressure on your shower n leave the kids on the tanks lol

Yep. It is quite common and better, and cheaper, than an unvented cylinder when using a "combination cylinder", with hot and cold sections, which is the size of an unvented cylinder too (no separate tanks). You only need high pressure at the shower in most cases.

 

[BigBurner]

Mikrofill Ethos 54kW

Seen these advertised in the merchant, seen you giving them good press a few times now.

54kW with rising gas prices? This is not an attack its a genuine inquiry as to how good they really are.

It is a very well specified boiler with OpenTherm compatibility, and a weather compensator too. The only downside is that the pressure vessel is external. The case is very small for such a high flow boiler.

It gives approx 22-23 litres/min. So in 10 mins the average cylinder is exhausted and this keeps going.

It is a quality product made in Holland. It is very well priced at around £1,400-1,500. Price up an unvented cylinder that can deliver 22 litres/min for 20 to 30 mins continuously, and it will be expensive and large. It heats bottom up so inefficient. Then price up a quality boiler to heat it. No contest in price or performance.

I'm not sure, but think it has the Gianonni preheated burner air heat exchanger.

 

[ChrisR]

Combis can do 22 litres/min, which is about the same as most cold tank/cylinders.

Let's be a bit more accurate than that. Standard flow from a conventional gravity system is about 22l/min, but with a 55° temp rise compared to the combi's quoted 35º.
More normal 35ish kW combi gives you less than half the energy rate in the water than the old system.

 

[BigBurner]

Combis can do 22 litres/min, which is about the same as most cold tank/cylinders.

Let's be a bit more accurate than that. Standard flow from a conventional gravity system is about 22l/min, but with a 55° temp rise compared to the combi's quoted 35º.

Not quite right In fact, not accurate at all The average has a 22mm cold feed with elbows in it and gives around 20 litres/min and 18 litres/min when using a mixer tap. You can get 22 litres/min if you have a 28mm cold feed. But this will only deliver hot water for a short period and run out. An infinitely continuous combi will go on for ever. No contest, the instant water heating wins hands down. As high flow body jet showers are becoming highly popular, instant water heating is the way to go.

Temperature rises of 55C does not apply to stored water delivery, unless a plate heat exchanger and bronze pump is used taking advantage of thermal layering - this resorts to what the boiler's output is in DHW delivery when the cylinder is exhausted (like a combi).

More normal 35ish kW combi gives you less than half the energy rate in the water than the old system.

The point is a 54kW combi, that is 20kW less.

 

[Nixt]

Maybe, but not for those reasons, Britain is probably the biggest combi market because of price.

And compactness and economy of running and they deliver the goods.

France are 80% electric,

New n me. I see combis everywhere in urban areas.

Italy have recently changed back to district heating,

All of it?

Spain is using more solar

and lots of combis too.

and Northern Europe are moving ever more towards renewables.

And Germany and Holland are inundated with combis.

Meanwhile back in the UK, you think you're the first to discover combi's...

I do? New on me.

Re. France- You must have your eyes & ears shut, Nuclear power has made electric top choice for decades.

Italy- Every building over 4 flats. Most people live in apartment blocks or condominiums.

As for the rest, they have many combis, but are looking to get away from them. You seem to think they're a new idea and the latest in thinking. Take away their giveaway prices and the market would struggle. Indeed sales are reportedly down anyway.

 

[BigBurner]

Re. France- You must have your eyes & ears shut, Nuclear power has made electric top choice for decades.

Gas is extensively used in domestic homes in France.

As for the rest, they have many combis, but are looking to get away from them.

They are? Enlighten us.

You seem to think they're a new idea and the latest in thinking. Take away their giveaway prices and the market would struggle. Indeed sales are reportedly down anyway.

A new idea? I have you the history Giveaway prices means cost effective.

Sales of everything is down. Combis continue to gain the largest slice of the market as higher flow models come onto the market.

 

[Nixt]

Re. France- You must have your eyes & ears shut, Nuclear power has made electric top choice for decades.

Gas is extensively used in domestic homes in France.

As for the rest, they have many combis, but are looking to get away from them.

They are? Enlighten us.

You seem to think they're a new idea and the latest in thinking. Take away their giveaway prices and the market would struggle. Indeed sales are reportedly down anyway.

A new idea? I have you the history Giveaway prices means cost effective.

Sales of everything is down. Combis continue to gain the largest slice of the market as higher flow models come onto the market.

For a country that has a gas network and over 50m population gas isn't extensively used in France. Nearly every new wet heating technology is based on storing energy in some preheated way, with your love of themal stores you should know this.

Higher flow combis have been around for over 15 years, nothing new there.

Have your opinion, but stop fooling yourself you're educating anyone about combis. They're a novelty to you because you've never installed one.