New patio & fencing - Advice on not getting ripped off

[Sprogginz]

This thread could possibly have been posted in 'General Discussion' as it could apply 'generally' although I'm hoping I can get some specific advice here.

I really don't have much experience in using tradesmen regarding quotes, haggling and what to expect. Right now I've got one other project for a new porch that I've posted where among other things I'm trying to find out just how much I'm supposed to pay because the difference in prices are huge!

When pricing up the materials for a new patio and fencing as if I was going to do it myself, it will come to about £700. I might be wrong but this is for paving blocks (5m x 3m area) and 5 panel fence including all the other materials such as sand, posts etc.

So far I have 2 quotes for £2600 and £3000 taking 3-4 days to complete the work. I also used a couple of online patio calculators and estimates from websites where they generally quote (excluding fencing of course) about £900 to £1200. Now I know these quotes are not based on exactly the same conditions but even still, the differences are significant.

Is there some general rule on how to go about getting the right price?
Is the tradesman expecting me to haggle with him, meaning his first price is always inflated and just tries his luck?
Right now I've just posted this job on MyBuilder.com but are they going to be expensive because they have to give the website a cut?

I'm not made of money and really have to save, so knowing that I've just paid for something that should've been 30-50% really puts me off using tradesmen. Maybe I'm just being negative especially because I really did get ripped off by a plumber one time and I have this fear. I don't want something for nothing but as long as I know that I've paid a fair price is what matters.

Are there websites that have a good and accurate (apart from this one of course) reputation for this sort of thing?

Thanks very much and hope you can help.

 

[r896neo]

Personally I give fixed quotes based on the materials needed plus estimated labour costs plus 20% profit on the combined total.

There is no negotiation, I don't screw people and I don't work for peanuts. Personally If someone asks for a lower price I just say no I'm sorry, I didn't just guess this price, I carefully worked it out.

I will usually offer people another quote with say lower quality paving flags, or perhaps reducing the area if its out of their budget but I never change a price based on a sense of being too expensive.

Generally speaking people who flipflop on prices are cowboys or chancers trying to make money by using subbies and whacking a profit on for themself.

That said I can almost guarantee your £700 does not include absolutely everything needed. Homeowners get a quote for what they think is needed but nearly always leave out bits and pieces, delivery costs, waste disposal etc. Not to mention machinery hire. If you did it yourself you would need a vibrating plate and mixer and power saw maybe a nail gun too for a couple of days totalling maybe 150 if you hired them. Yes I own them and don't need to hire them but I had to buy them at significant cost and maintain them and save for a replacement so must charge for their use perhaps at 1/4 of the hire rate.

Its all those little things that add up into the real materials cost many homeowners miss.

Without doubt the best way to get accurate and good quotes is to be specific and get 3/4quotes. Say Exactly what you want and to what spec. Eg. 3" or 4"posts, fence finished at the base with timber gravel board. Paving of x type laid with x kerbs.

With 3/4 quotes you can relax and know your not getting done.

I would avoid websites, try and ask local people for recommendations. Did someone at the end of the street get a new fence? Politely call and ask who did it and where they happy with it.

 

[Sprogginz]

...I carefully worked it out...

Thanks very much for your time and advice, very helpful indeed!

You could well be right about the price, I may have underestimated but did realise the hiring of equipment, tools and removals which I appreciate that a tradesman has to factor in as overheads too and not just materials and labour.

As you stated in the quote above, is that something you go away and work out the quote first after seeing the customer's place, or through experience you can work it out in your head whilst still with the customer and give them quote there and then?

I'm guessing when an 'experienced' tradesman looks at a job he can give himself an 'accurate' idea of how much it will cost on the spot? I just find it impressive that they can give a quote like that, but worried that some slap an extra £500 or even £1000 to cover themselves especially as I probably look as if I could be taken for a ride!

Right now and as stated in my first post, I already have two quotes but to be honest, I'm more impressed with the more expensive one and inclined to go with him so it's not just about the money. I am confident he will do a good job but I guess the important thing now is to find out if his price is reasonable. If £3000 is a reasonable price or the going rate, then so be it. I don't want to squeeze a better price out of them (even if I could!) otherwise they might cut corners or not do a better job - I want them to be happy too!

Because of the popularity of the job I've now got quite a few interested tradesmen (and woman) on MyBuider.com so hopefully I will get a much better idea.
I guess this will be good practice for me when the day comes for bigger jobs as I always feel guilty when I have to say "I'll think about it" but then they say "What don't you like about my quote?" after they've made the effort to come round and advise me when I'm just gathering all the quotes to make the final decision. I know this is all part and parcel but can't help it!

Actually, that's a point. As a tradesman, what would you want to hear or respect from a potential customer who is gathering quotes? Shall I tell them right from the start that I'm doing just that so won't be making a decision on that day and thank them for their time? Are there things that customers say that you find annoying!?

Again and as you've said, I guess at the end of the day, getting as many quotes as possible is the only way of getting a good idea how much it 'should' cost AND seeing which Tradesmen are the honest and caring ones, and which ones just want to see how much money they can get.

Thanks again, really appreciate it.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Forget using any websites to get quotes from, use real people who see the site, r896neo's advice is very sound.

 

[r896neo]

I would be wary of anyone who offers you a price on the spot. An estimate is fine but you should only be interested in fixed quotes then everything is detailed for all parties to see.

People quoting generically such as 'erect fence as discussed, £1200' are to be regarded with caution. If they put that little effort into a quote does that imply how little effort they will put into a job?

Erect 18.5m of cliseboard fencing along existing fence-line. 4" treated timber posts installed at 1800 centres, posts concreted in at least 18". Fencing hung on 3 rails and faced with 22mm treated square top boards. Nailed with galvanised ring shank gun nails. Finished height 1800mm.

That is the kind of detail I use and then she its all finished everyone knows where they stand. The gravel boards they asked you to add are obviously not included so charged extra etc and its all transparent. Protects the tradesman too.

Most people will have a rough per metre price for common paving types and per linear metre of fencing but as I said that should only ever be used as an estimate. If someone quotes on the spot its going to have a certain safety margin in it and you can guess who's favour that is in.

As a tradesman I am more Tha happy for people to get extra quotes. The thing that annoys me and most is people not comparing like for like spec. Which is why a detailed quote like my example gives a fair way to compare quotes as the guy who quoted for 'erect fence as discussed' maybe will only use posts every 2.5m and use 3" timber and less rails etc etc.

There are exceptions to every rule but somone who gives a detailed written quote is usually more professional in the way they conduct themselves and carry out jobs in my experience.

 

[Sprogginz]

Thank you, really helpful again.

What you've said makes sense - common sense. As I mentioned before, it's impressive to think someone can come along and give me a price straight away unless they've wacked on an excess knowing it will cover them for any shortfalls.

I would have expected them to give me a rough quote then go away and give me away a final quote.

Unfortunately and so far, I've never met anyone that has done this - it seems to be the norm now. Maybe this is why tradesmen offer to give 'free' quotes because I can appreciate that it can take time to price up a job and may well spend a lot of time on giving 'proper' quotes only to have none of them accepted. I'm assuming 'back in the day' it was normal to pay for a quote otherwise why advertise the word 'free'?

I will continue to get more quotes and maybe ask them "Don't you need to price it up first?" and hear what they say.

Thanks again.

 

[r896neo]

Everyone is different. Some people with have a per metre price and they simply apply that and quote at that rate. For driveways that can work fine as access is never an issue.

As I said for me I just don't like it.

Cant stress enough how a local recommendation is usually so superior to mybuilder, rated people and similar websites who seem to be populated by bad customers wanting bottom dollar work and therefore tradesmen to suit.